How to Break the Transactional Mindset and Price Your Worth with Confidence | John Ray

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:00:00

The show where courageous leaders, innovative thinkers and seasoned experts share the strategies and mindset shifts that fuel sustainable success.

This is where we talk about the real challenges of leadership, growth and value without hype, without fluff, and without pretending the journey is easy. Today's guest helps professionals do one of the hardest things in business. Price their expertise with confidence, without feeling salesy.

John Roy works with consultants, attorneys, coaches, a fraction of executives and other solo or small firm leaders to help them price for the true value they deliver and win business by earning trust.

John is the author of the Generosity Mindset, a journey to business success by raising your confidence, value and prices, a book that holds a five star rating across 80 reviews on Amazon. He's also the author of the forthcoming book the Generosity Mindset Workbook.

ay, John has hosted more than: 11200

John Ray: 00:01:14

Reverend Dr. Keith Hanney. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm grateful to you. Appreciate you and your work.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:01:19

Well, thank you. Looking forward to this great conversation with a fellow podcaster. I'm not quite at that many episodes yet, but.

John Ray: 00:01:28

That's right, that's right.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:01:30

So I'm going to ask you my favorite question to kind of warm us up. What's the best piece of advice you ever received and how has it shaped the way you approach your work today?

John Ray: 00:01:40

Ah, how about this? Everything. Every, everyone can teach you something, but that doesn't mean you ought to take direction from everyone. Good point. How about that one?

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:01:57

I love that one because I've taken advice from Google Maps one time, end up in a trailer park I wasn't trying to go to. So there you go. Yeah.

John Ray: 00:02:06

And you made it back to tell the tale, huh?

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:02:08

I did. I did. Okay, so I don't. That's good advice.

John Ray: 00:02:14

Yeah. Well. And you know what? Sometimes that applies to the thoughts in our head. We'll get more into that. Right.

But sometimes we don't need to listen to what's in our head. Sometimes we got trash up there.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:02:26

That's right. So let's talk about your book titled the general ice of the mindset.

Speaking about what's in our heads, what might surprise people when they hear about pricing and business success,.

John Ray: 00:02:40

How much it has to do with what's in our heads. You know, we, we have so much self talk in our heads that's mostly negative.

That's what the folks that study these things tell us is that so much of what we say to ourselves in our heads, is negative, even though we may think we're overall a positive person. Right, right. But that what we tell ourselves is often negative, that we're not good enough, that we're not. We don't compare well to others.

We've got imposter syndrome. You know, some psychologists estimated that 80% of us suffer from imposter syndrome.

Let's see those mindsets, or stinking thinking is another way to put it. That stinking thinking affects our pricing, particularly if we're trying to price our expertise, the gray matter between our ears.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:03:44

That's a good point. You know, Apple just started something new where you could actually, you know, set up subscriptions for your podcast.

And the options on there are like, well, is your podcast worth $12 a year, or is it worth more than $12 a year? Is your content worth a dollar a month? And you kind of go. And you just talked about it.

It's like you're trying to price what you're giving to an audience and put it into a framework. It's like, is somebody going to actually pay for this that I work so hard at?

John Ray: 00:04:18

Yeah, yeah. Well, here's another great example. Right. So where the value gets attached, it feels like.

It's like right in the middle of your forehead, the price tag. Right, Right.

You pass the proposal across the table that you've sweated over, and suddenly there's this thought in your head, oh, no, I think I asked too much even before the client says anything. Right. I mean, maybe that's just me, but I think that's happened to a lot of us.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:04:55

Is that why you passed it over? Whether it turned upside down? So you don't know?

John Ray: 00:04:59

That's right. That's right. Yeah. So you can't read it. Right. So, yeah, I mean, this is.

This affects us in deep ways, and it harkens back to the mindsets around money that we grew up with.

And so what I talk about in the book, this is where the generosity mindset piece of it comes in, is that we've got to get out of our own heads and get into the heads of our clients, because clients see more value in us than we see ourselves. So, I mean, here's an example.

I mean, you know, when you're growing up, a young man, you know, boy, then a teenager, you know, you've had adults along the way, grandparents, maybe a teacher, mentors, other family members, friends that have said things to you like, you're wise beyond your years or, you know, you really handle people really well. I really admire that.

Or, you know, they give you these compliments that come out of the blue and they see something in you that you don't see yourself or you haven't admitted to yourself or haven't embraced. And clients are the same way. See, they see value in us that we don't see ourselves unless we get into their heads and certainly ask.

But lean into that instead of these mindsets that hold us back.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:06:40

I want you to define for us generosity, because when I read your book and saw it in the context of business, it's not something that you typically associate with business. You don't typically associate generosity with business.

So kind of explain to me how you see generosity in the context of value, confidence, and pricing.

John Ray: 00:07:00

Well, first of all, thank you for having me on my show even after you read my book. I appreciate that, my friend.

No, seriously, generosity is not first of all, it's more than just like giving away to charitable causes or something like that. That's what we associate it with. And then sometimes I have people ask me, well, does that mean you're giving things away?

No, it does not mean you're giving things away. On the contrary, as a matter of fact, what it means is a generous spirit.

I mean, in the Gospel of Matthew, it says, be generous as your father is generous. This is like ancient wisdom.

Whatever your faith tradition is, this is ancient wisdom that do unto others, you know, as you would have them do unto you. So these are. These are timeless principles that are not just ancient wisdom and faith, but also business.

I mean, one of my favorite books is the Go Giver by Bob Berg. And Bob talks about how you give to the universe and the universe gives back to you. And if you.

If you approach others with a spirit of looking out for their interest first, then you will get back, maybe not directly from them all the time, but you will get back because the universe will see you. Your network, your community will see you as a professional of value, and you'll get rewarded for that.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:09:01

So tell us again a little bit about how you see this in the business world. We talked a little bit about that. Because I'm curious. Like I said, you don't typically think. Now, I'm from Louisiana.

We were just talking before you came on.

I come from the south, and one of the great principles of one of the places I used to go to for bakery was this idea of lagnap, you know, is the baker's. Doesn't you always get a Little bit more in the package than you ask for or a more generous helping.

How do you teach generosity in the business sense?

John Ray: 00:09:34

Yeah. So thank you for asking that, because this is. We are living in a environment right now where this is not popular. No, right. I mean, that.

Look, when we look at the headlines, we look at social media, help us all. And what we see are people that are getting ahead based on fraud, deceit, and just all sorts of, well, bad actor, bad acting. Right. Bad character.

And we see a lot of that right now.

And here's the thing about that is it's not sustainable because the time has a way of being a weighing machine, weighing what's valuable and what's not. And so what I'm advocating is that when you think of others and put others at your.

In your priority in terms of their needs, hopes, wants, desires, anxieties, fears, that you're putting their interest first, it does come back to you, regardless of what others are doing. And this is borne out in business, in companies that treat their employees well.

They have lower absenteeism, they have lower turnover, they perform better in the stock market overall. I mean, there's been numerous studies of this done. That's just one way to measure it.

So, yes, there are people that, you know, get ahead through means that I wouldn't embrace by any means. That said, that doesn't mean that. That doesn't discredit the idea that you can live with a service mentality and not do well.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:11:43

Yeah, that's good. So let's get into your book. I got your book here. And, and it's got three parts to it. And it starts out with get the right mindset about value.

You mentioned in chapter one that there are certain mindsets that hold us back. What are those? Mindsets that hold people back.

John Ray: 00:12:01

Yeah. So let's. What about the mindset of inadequacy? I'm just not good enough. You know, the mindset of comparison, wow.

I'm just not going to be anything like Keith is, you know, or what. What. What other person that we've got in our. In our sights is somebody we look up to. Right. I'm never going to be that kind of person.

Imposter syndrome. I mentioned that, that it's. Hey, it's just a matter of time before I get found out. People gonna find me out for who I really am, and it's not.

It's not good enough. The mindset of helping.

So this is a big one for people that do have a orientation towards service and faith is sometimes they just Give too much away because they want to help people. And the problem with that is, is that if you're not in business, you can't help people.

I mean, you've got to charge enough to be able to stay in business to be sustainable. You've got to run a sustainable business to be able to help. So the mindset of helping can get you in big trouble.

Then we have these mindsets around money that we've gotten early in our upbringing. Maybe we've grown up thinking that we just cannot, that having too much money is a bad thing.

And of course, there's always this question of, well, how do you define too much money? Right. But that may be for faith reasons, that may be for political reasons.

There's a lot of reasons behind that and depends on the person and their family of origin. But these money beliefs get embedded in our heads early on and affect us later on in ways that we sometimes aren't really cognizant of.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:14:18

Well, there are a lot of politicians who like to define how much is too much money. But yes,.

John Ray: 00:14:25

Yes, absolutely.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:14:28

Keeping that in mind, you have a Chapter 3 of Redefining your value. So once you get through the mindset piece and you've kind of come to grips with that, how do you help people that you work with redefine their value?

John Ray: 00:14:46

Yeah. So the big, hairy, audacious idea in my book is that clients see more value in us than we see ourselves.

So the question is, what is the value that they see? And let's identify that and lean into that and use that as a way to substitute for the mindsets that hold us back.

So one of the things I do with clients right from the beginning when I work with them, and this is a good exercise for those listening to do themselves, is to go look at the reviews that people leave for your business and what they say about you, and look at the ways people refer you and what they say about you when they refer you. So here's an example.

I've got a friend of mine who's a cpa, and he got a referral from one of his clients who said about him, roger just makes me calm. I mean, I get a letter from the irs, and it just makes me so mad.

And he's gritting his teeth and he said, you know, then I call Roger, and he just makes me calm. Well, see, calm has nothing to do with how Roger fills out the tax return. That's the thing.

It's intangible, but it's highly valuable to this gentleman because it's the first thing he mentions and Roger's ability to fill out that tax return and do it correctly and on time is not the question for him. That's a given. The question are other things that are highly valuable and those are intangible. And those intangibles are worth money.

They're worth a lot of money and people pay for that.

And so that's my point is if we don't understand the intangible reasons that clients do business with us, then we're not able to adequately price to the value that they see.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:16:59

That's good. So you kind of led into beautifully, you must do this far on podcast, but you led into the next question. So lovely. So how would you.

Why is pricing critical to your success?

John Ray: 00:17:13

Oh boy, how long's the show? So, so, so here's the thing about pricing, and this is not my opinion, this is an accounting fact.

All the, all the CPAs accountants out there will agree with me. Pricing is the fastest way to change the bottom line of any business. It's it, it's better than cutting cost.

It's better than more effective than some new marketing campaign. It's the fastest way to change your bottom line. And Warren Buffett, I mean, he knows a thing or two about companies values and so forth.

He says if you have to have a prayer meeting when you want to raise your prices by 10%, you don't have much of a business. Well, his point, it's a little bit of a punchy point, but the point is that pricing is very, very important.

It's pricing power is very important in the sustainability and the ultimate value of your business. So this is one reason why I'm so passionate about it, besides the fact that when I started my business I wasn't any good at it. And that got me.

You see, you're kind enough not to ask that question. But see, that's why I'm passionate about it.

Because I came out of corporate not knowing what I was doing and I didn't have the resources out there that I could find that would help me price better. And I saw all my clients struggling with it and that's what made me passionate about it.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:19:00

We know that there is really two extremes of pricing. You could, you could price yourself so, so low that you don't make a profit and you can price yourself out of business.

How do you find that sweet spot where the value of what you're offering is so good that the customers want more, but not so much that they are turned off by it? I mean, because it's a really kind of a sweet spot you have to find when it comes to pricing.

John Ray: 00:19:28

Yeah. Well, what you have to do is have value conversations with your clients.

And those are, yes, conversations, just like the picture that comes to your mind when I use that word. But it's also seeing what they say in reviews.

I mean, asking, just asking the question when you're with a customer or client, um, hey, why don't you keep doing business with me?

You know, just, and, and they'll tell you, they'll, they'll tell you and they will, they will tell you things again that are intangibles that don't have anything to do with the product or service that you offer per se, may have to do with how you do it, but it won't be, it won't apply to the deliverable, you know, the task that, that you see. And so when you lean into that value and price, to that value, you're just pricing to get a sliver of that value. Right. So that's the thing. It's.

The client will continue to pay if they see value that's in excess of the price, that, that if they're receiving value in excess of the price they're paying, they'll do business with you. So that's the key is understanding where they see value and what that value is worth to them. It's client perceived value and not what we think.

It's what they think. And as long as that's ahead of the price, in excess of the price, then they're going to do business with you.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:21:13

Yeah, I like that your chapter three of your book says growth in your business with generosity mindset and chapter 11 I'm fascinated by, because in my work in the church, I always tell people it's all about relationships. And your chapter is relationships drive revenue.

Tell us how you encourage the people you work with to invest the time and energy into relationships and how critical that is for their success.

John Ray: 00:21:42

Well, if you are a professional services provider then, and really if you're in any kind of business, relationships drive your business. Now we're under this, and this is particularly acute right now, this thinking. We're under this thinking right now that we're in this.

It's, it's all about us. You know, we're, we're the ones that pull up our bootstraps and we go out and single handedly conquer the world. And let's get real about this, right?

We have been formed, we are blessed by those that have formed us. We have, as I said at the Top, we've got something to learn from everyone, even those that we'd rather not have to think about sometimes, right?

People are there to. Even those, those folks that devil us sometimes support us in ways that we should be grateful for.

And certainly those that are on our side and people go out of their ways to do things for us that sometimes we never think about or we know about. And if we knew about it, we would, we would acknowledge it, but sometimes we just don't know.

And so the point of it is, is when you have that kind of thinking and acknowledge that what makes the most sense to do is keep investing in that, invest in those relationships and continue to deepen those relationships. Do what you can for others and it will come back to you.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:23:30

I love it. You talk about marketing in that chapter as well. Tell us a little bit about marketing and the generosity mindset.

John Ray: 00:23:39

So one of the red flags, what I call the red flags of inadequate pricing is when your marketing material is all about you, all about me, and not about the needs, hopes, wants, fears, desires of the client. Now why is that a problem?

It's a problem because if it's all about me, then I'm not touching that client where they live and where they really want to be touched.

So your marketing as a service provider needs to be oriented toward the outcomes that you deliver, the transformations that you bring about in your work. And when you talk from those terms in your marketing, you're hitting people right where they live. I mean, here's an example.

One of the things that I say, and it's somewhat punchy, but one of the things that I say is I'm the difference between someone, a business owner, being able to vacation in Rome, Georgia versus Rome, Italy.

Well, well, see, that's a whole lot different kind of way of casting what I do than saying, you know, I'm a pricing consultant coach, work with business owners to help them with their pricing. You know, when I describe the outcome, that hits them right where they live.

And so that's what we need to think about in terms of our marketing and our marketing message.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:25:18

So you don't want to go to Rome, Georgia versus Rome, Italy?

John Ray: 00:25:21

I love Rome, Georgia. I got some great friends in Rome, Georgia. But I don't mind going to Rome, Italy either.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:25:30

Okay. Okay. I just want to clarify.

John Ray: 00:25:32

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:25:33

For all those Bulldog fans listening.

John Ray: 00:25:36

That's right.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:25:37

So your people, you help people with business win business without feeling salesy. How does a generosity based approach change the sales conversation entirely with people?

John Ray: 00:25:49

I love that question. Thank you for that. So yeah, so many of us are shy about being so shy about being salesy. We don't really. We withdraw.

And that's the wrong way to think about it. We.

Here's a better way to think about the conversations that you have with prospects is that you are not there to sell them anything, necessarily, although that may happen. You're there to guide them to a better decision that changes their life for the better. That's what you're there to do.

And sometimes that conversation may result in a sale for you, and sometimes it may not. What you're going to say to someone is, I'm here to deliver value to you, regardless of whether that results in a sale for me.

And that's what I'm here to do. And if I can't help you, I'll refer you to someone that can, or I'll find you another alternative.

When you approach a conversation that way, people relax. They. They open up suddenly.

It's a much easier conversation than when folks tense up because they think you're coming at them with, again, that salesy attitude. Right? So that's the way I suggest folks think about it, is it's about how you serve. It's not about selling, it's about serving.

And when you do that, you'll get your fill of sales just naturally and organically.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:27:38

So we talked a little bit about sales, but confidence plays a huge role also in pricing. How do you help clients build internal confidence required to stand behind their prices even when the prospect pushes back?

John Ray: 00:27:54

So it's all about the value that clients see. And this just in. There are clients, plenty of them, that they may see value in what you provide, but they'll still push back on price.

That doesn't mean they don't see value. It just means they're trying to get the best deal they can. You know, I had a client tell me just this morning that she had someone she offered at.

After working with me, she introduced, you know, good, better, best options. And she had for her service, and she had a client that said, I want to pick your best, you know, your premium service, but can you.

Can you help me with that price a little bit? And she said, she said, john, you've been proud of me.

I said, I told him, well, yeah, I can help you with the price, but what, what in this option, this package are we going to take out? You see? And then once the guy thought about it, he's like, you know what? I think I love what y' all do. We just want.

We just want what you've Presented, you see, it's all about price compared to what we've got to create the comparison. And the comparison should always be the value that they see in it, that clients see in it.

And if we don't create the right comparison, then they'll pick something out of the. Out of the blue to compare it against. Sometimes that has nothing to do with your product or service.

So it's very important that we create that comparison for clients.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:29:50

I negotiate the pork from a pig myself, but that's it.

John Ray: 00:29:57

I love it. I love it.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:30:00

Your book is clearly resonated. And now you're releasing the generosity workbook, Mindset workbook.

What inspired the workbook, and what do you hope you see supporting readers differently than the book did?

John Ray: 00:30:13

Well, the workbook is basically a way to kind of work through these things instead of just reading about them.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:30:22

Right.

John Ray: 00:30:24

And there are some folks that I will never be able to reach personally, but they can take what the principles that are in the generosity mindset and apply them. Apply them to themselves in. In the book or in the workbook. See, the. Here's the thing. Pricing is a journey.

And this is why I call my podcast the Price and Value Journey. It's a journey and it takes work to be able to make this mindset change.

And so being able to journal about it, to be able to understand yourself well enough to. To see the stinking thinking and. And to see where you made a mistake and where you can improve so that you can document that.

And in that writing, it cements it in your head for next time that. Where you can improve. So that's the reason for that, for that workbook.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:31:32

Great. So you've hosted over: 1200

John Ray: 00:31:45

Well, I think it's the ones who keep their finger on the pulse of their clients and see where clients see value and be able to respond to that. That is not just a pricing thing. That's really like the lifeblood of our business. Right.

So, I mean, if you're a donut shop and you've got folks that are showing up at six in the morning and you don't open till seven, you know, maybe the clients are telling you something there. Right.

And so that's a seemingly trite example, but the point is, is that the business owners that see what clients are looking for and respond to that are the ones that do quite well. And so just keeping your. And that's hard to do when you're in a growing business. It's hard to do. And it's hard to keep that in mind.

It's hard like when you're ringing up a sale at the cash register or you're wrapping up a meeting with a client to say, make it a habit to say, hey, by the way, tell me about, you know, what's going on in your life and other ways that maybe we can serve you. Or why do you keep doing business with us? Like, what keeps you coming back?

I just love to know, you know, we appreciate you and to be able to keep asking those questions and learning from that and implementing what you learn in your business.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:33:23

What's one belief about sales you wish would disappear forever?

John Ray: 00:33:28

Ah, that introverts are bad at sales. I'm an introvert, so I can't be good at sales. Garbage. Absolute garbage. As a matter of fact, my introverted friends out there, here's the thing.

You may be better than a lot of folks that are the backslapping, you know, high fiving, always talking kind of salespeople. Why is that? Because you've got the capacity to shut it down, shut your mouth and listen. And that's what people are looking for, number one.

And number two, that's when you learn, you know, there's the old bromide about how, you know, you've got one mouth and two ears for a reason and, you know, communicate using that ratio. And when you do that, you learn a whole lot. And clients respond to that. And so introverts are especially equipped for that.

So that's one of those misconceptions that I wish would just go away because it hurts the people that consider themselves introverted.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:34:50

Yeah, that's very true. So I'm going to ask you my other favorite question. What do you want your legacy to be?

John Ray: 00:34:58

That I helped from a business point of view, that I helped a lot of business owners bring joy back to their business because a lot of the people that read my book and respond to it, a lot of my clients that I work with, that they have joy back in their business.

And that's the way I end the book is talking about joy, is that that's why we're in business for ourselves, or we'd still be back in corporate or working for somebody else. So that's what I hope my legacy is.

And of course, you know, I hope that I have a legacy of being a great husband and great father and someone who served his community great.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:35:50

So I'm gonna ask you to pick a number between 1 and 10 for a surprise question.

John Ray: 00:35:55

Uh, oh, okay. How about Number eight.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:36:05

What is the worst job you've ever had?

John Ray: 00:36:08

Oh, that's easy. So. So When I was 14, my father decided I need to get into the working world and learn what having a real job was all about.

And so he got me a job as the janitor in a daycare. And let me tell you something, you get an appreciation for what preschoolers can.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:36:35

Do.

John Ray: 00:36:37

And the mess that they can make. And there was one little dude that he kept relieving himself in the corner of the bathroom, not in the toilet.

And I was the young fella that had to clean that up. And so they never did catch who that was, but he kept slipping in there and doing that. And I was the one that kept cleaning up after him.

And that was when I decided, you know what? I'm going to make something of myself so I don't have to do this job. And that's why I respect.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:37:14

That's why I respect.

John Ray: 00:37:15

That's why I respect people that have do janitorial work, because they do that.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:37:20

Myself when I was younger.

John Ray: 00:37:21

So, yeah, no, it's not fun. So there you go.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:37:27

Well, John, thanks so much for sharing with us. Tell us where people can find you, connect with you on social media and buy your books.

John Ray: 00:37:35

Well, thank you again for having me on. This has been a delight to be on your Wonderful Show. John Ray.co is my web website. You can feel free. Feel welcome to email me directly.

John Ray.co is my email address and you can go to the generosity mindset.com to find out where to buy the book, which is essentially in all digital or brick and mortar bookstores.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:38:10

Well, John, thank you so much for being a guest on the show and providing such amazing content. John's work reminds us that pricing isn't just a financial decision. It's a statement of confidence, clarity and respect for the value you bring.

If today's conversation resonated with you, check out the Generosity Mindset on Amazon and other books are sold.

Keep an eye out for the upcoming Generosity Mindset workbook and explore John's podcast, Price and Value Journey and and North Fulton Business Radio for ongoing insights and guidance. Because when you price with generosity, everyone wins the client, the business and the relationship.

Thank you so much, John, for being an incredible host, I mean, guest on the show today.

John Ray: 00:38:51

Thank you again, Dr. Haney. I really appreciate you and your great work. Thank you.