The Future of Church Leadership: Adapting to New Realities
The salient point of today's discussion centers on the imperative for enhanced leadership training within the Roman Catholic Church, particularly for clergy. My esteemed guest, Bernadette Kime, who boasts over two decades of leadership experience in the Church and recently earned her PhD in instructional management and leadership, articulates the critical need for equipping church leaders with the requisite skills to navigate the complexities of their roles. We delve into the dichotomy of spiritual guidance versus administrative responsibilities that priests must balance, and the challenges posed by inadequate formal training in seminaries. Moreover, Bernadette shares her insights on the importance of mentorship and the need for clergy to embrace a mindset open to change and adaptation in response to the evolving demands of their congregations. Through our dialogue, we illuminate the pressing necessity for structural reforms that prioritize leadership development and support within the Church, aiming to foster a healthier, more effective environment for faith leadership.
In our engaging discussion with Bernadette, we traverse the landscape of church leadership, highlighting her extensive background and the recent completion of her PhD in instructional management and leadership. This academic achievement serves as a springboard for our exploration of the critical competencies required for effective church leadership. Bernadette elucidates the necessity for a harmonious blend of spiritual guidance and administrative acumen, positing that many clergy are often overwhelmed by the demands of management, which can obscure their pastoral mission. This theme resonates throughout the conversation as we examine the delicate balancing act that church leaders must perform in their daily responsibilities.
Bernadette shares her personal journey, reflecting on formative influences that shaped her understanding of leadership within the church. Her father's resilience and the mentorship of a dedicated nun inspired her to embrace challenges and pursue a career in ecclesiastical leadership, despite the obstacles she faced as a woman in a predominantly male-dominated institution. These narratives underscore the vital importance of role models and mentorship in cultivating the next generation of church leaders. The dialogue then shifts to Bernadette's research findings, revealing a consensus among clergy regarding the necessity of leadership training, juxtaposed against the stark reality of insufficient resources and initiatives to facilitate this development.
As we delve deeper, the conversation addresses the pervasive issue of clergy burnout and the systemic inadequacies within seminary training programs. Bernadette advocates for a reimagined approach to pastoral education that integrates practical leadership skills with theological training, thereby equipping new pastors with the tools necessary to navigate the complexities of modern church life. The discussion culminates in a call to action for church leadership to prioritize the development of supportive frameworks that empower clergy while fostering a culture of collaboration and shared responsibility within congregations. Bernadette's insights illuminate the path forward for church leaders seeking to thrive in their vocations while remaining true to their spiritual commitments.
Takeaways:
- Bernadette has over two decades of experience in leadership within the Roman Catholic Church, emphasizing the necessity for skilled leadership in church positions.
- She completed her PhD in 2023, focusing on instructional management and leadership, particularly in the context of church leadership.
- Her research revealed a strong desire among priests for leadership training, highlighting an openness to change within the church.
- Effective church leadership requires a delicate balance between spiritual guidance and practical administrative tasks, emphasizing the importance of delegation.
- The Synod on Synodality initiated by Pope Francis exemplifies an inclusive approach to church leadership by actively listening to diverse voices within the community.
- There is a pressing need for intentional faith formation and leadership development to address the challenges facing clergy in contemporary society.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
My guest today, Bernadette, has over 20 years experience working in leadership positions within the Roman Catholic Church.
Speaker A: In: Speaker A:Her primary area of focus is church leadership, specifically ensuring that those positions of leadership possess the skills necessary to lead.
Speaker A:In addition, Burdette is an adjunct instructor for St.
Speaker A:Madrid Seminary in her permanent Deacon Deconant Formation program, course facilitator for University of Dayton Virtual Learning Community for Faith Formation, and adjunct faculty for Ohio Dominican University in their theological department.
Speaker A:We welcome her to the podcast.
Speaker A:To the podcast.
Speaker A:Well, Bernadette, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:How are you doing today?
Speaker B:Oh, pretty good.
Speaker B:Trying to stay warm in this winter weather.
Speaker A:Aren't we all?
Speaker A:So I'm going to ask you my favorite question, ask all my guests.
Speaker A:What's the best piece of advice you ever received?
Speaker B:Well, I think for my father, embrace challenges.
Speaker B:He was always one that says, never shy away from challenges.
Speaker B:And when things come your way, that's unexpected, just embrace them and, you know, and look at them as opportunities to grow.
Speaker B:Not, not something to fret or fear.
Speaker A:Oh, I love that.
Speaker A:That's so good because, you know, challenges will come again.
Speaker A:Somebody else said about the same, kind of along those same lines of, you know, life gives you lemons.
Speaker A:What do you do with it?
Speaker A:Do you make lemonade or do you just suck on a sour lemon?
Speaker A:You know, so for sure.
Speaker B:Sure for sure.
Speaker A:So I'm curious as you think about your life and people who have been important to you, who were some people who maybe served to inspire you or be a mentor for you along your journey.
Speaker B:Well, I would have to say, you know, given the advice I just shared with you from my father, that he's one of them.
Speaker B:You know, he came from humble beginnings.
Speaker B:He never had a more than a high school diploma, but yet he became very successful in the federal government in the mine safety industry.
Speaker B:So he was very, you know, driven and he didn't let obstacles get in his way.
Speaker B:And even though he had limited formal education, he really, you know, inspired me to just try, strive for the, to be the best and, you know, in the church as well.
Speaker B:He was always either mowing the lawn at the church or he became active in boards, school boards for the diocese, mission boards for the diocese.
Speaker B:So I always saw him active as the church being a center of his life.
Speaker B:And, you know, also along with that, you know, when I was trying to decide what career path I wanted to go into after college, I did a volunteer year and in that year they assigned me to A small church in rural West Virginia, believe it or not.
Speaker B:Never thought I'd come full circle and end up back in West Virginia.
Speaker B:But there was this little nun, little religious sister running the parish, and she just had so many.
Speaker B:You know, the people loved her.
Speaker B:She did a great job in keeping people, you know, organized.
Speaker B:She'd go out and evangelize and was committed to social justice.
Speaker B:And she inspired me to say, hey, hey, you know, I could do that.
Speaker B:You know, even though I'm a woman, even though I'm, you know, I can still be a leader in the Catholic Church, just in a different sort of way.
Speaker B:And that sort of led me in my career path that, you know, has sustained me to this day.
Speaker A:That's great.
Speaker A:So I see you just completed your PhD.
Speaker A:Tell us a little bit about what your PhD area of study was.
Speaker B:Well, it was actually interesting.
Speaker B:I was never really looking for a PhD, believe it or not.
Speaker B:And, you know, we were actually at the diocese, know, and going through some really tough times.
Speaker B:As you know, the Catholic Church has experienced a lot of scandal.
Speaker B:We had a bishop who was doing improper things on many levels, and he was ousted.
Speaker B:And I was very, very down.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:I went through those stages of grief when you mourn and you get angry and.
Speaker B:And, you know, and then I got a postcard in the mail that said, come and learn about the Instructional Management and Leadership program at Robert Morris University in Pittsburgh.
Speaker B:And I'm like, why me?
Speaker B:Why did this come to me?
Speaker B:But as I started thinking about, I'm like, you know, who knows more about dysfunctional leadership at this moment than me?
Speaker B:And I was living through it.
Speaker B:And I said, rather than grieving and being angry and emotional, do something productive.
Speaker B:So I said, you know, I want to study leadership.
Speaker B:I knew when I went into the program that I wanted to do something on church leadership because that was what I was passionate about at the time.
Speaker B:But then, you know, as I started getting into the program and meeting with mentors and stuff, they're like, you have to stop being angry.
Speaker B:You have to stop letting your emotions take over, and you have to look at this critically and academically.
Speaker B:So I had a come to Jesus moment, and I bracketed all of my, you know, anger and emotion and said, you know, this is a real problem.
Speaker B:And the more I started talking to people in different diet in our surrounding dioceses, the more I realized, you know, this is an issue that.
Speaker B:That really needs some reflection and some study and some, you know, and so that's what I did.
Speaker B:So, you know, three years later, you know, I got my PhD and my dissertation was on Roman Catholic priests, the need for leadership and management training.
Speaker B:And it was a really proud accomplishment.
Speaker A:I know I did my research, I came across some surprising results.
Speaker A:I came in with, you know, this hypothesis of what I was trying to investigate, but found some things that I was not expecting.
Speaker A:So what was the most surprising part of your research?
Speaker B:Well, I think the surprising thing was there's that desire for leadership and management training.
Speaker B:Everyone knows that it's a problem.
Speaker B:Um, the seminaries know it's a problem.
Speaker B:The, the seminarians, you know, knew it was a problem.
Speaker B:The, the priests knew it was a problem.
Speaker B:So the awareness of the problem.
Speaker B:But how are, are, are there initiatives to help solve the problem?
Speaker B:And there were, you know, that there are programs out there, leadership development programs and tools for priests.
Speaker B:Um, you know, and there's different ideas that were floating through.
Speaker B:So I thought that that was very surprising that there's there while they admit that there's a problem, there's an openness to change and to realize that priests do need to, and church leaders do need training and they do need to continue to grow and develop.
Speaker B:And that was something positive, but that was something that I found.
Speaker A:I know when I work a lot, being a pastor myself, we struggle with the idea are we leaders or are we shepherds?
Speaker A:And I'm sure you have the same issue in your, in the Catholic Church as well.
Speaker A:What do you believe are some of the core skills that priests and pastors need to be effective church leaders?
Speaker B:Well, I think you're, you're right.
Speaker B:There are two different set of skills.
Speaker B:There's a shepherding, there's the, the spiritual side and there's helping them grow spiritually and close to God.
Speaker B:But then there's also those day to day tasks of being a leader and building up the congregation and meeting the temporal needs of the parish and the church and making sure it funct.
Speaker B:So I think there's that balance where I think that priests tend to be so bogged down in that leadership management, that day to day administrative work that they forget about the spiritual side.
Speaker B:So I think you're right.
Speaker B:It's a delicate tightrope to walk that they have to be spiritual and realize that they're leading people to God and that's, and to help them to spread the mission of the church.
Speaker B:On the other hand, they have to realize how to juggle those other responsibilities.
Speaker B:I think it's, it's a balancing act and they have to.
Speaker B:You know, what I'm going to suggest is that they do more, more delegating and more discerning and looking at people in their parish that can help them with these administrative tasks because they want to do spiritual things.
Speaker B:You know, one of the biggest findings in my research was that priest said, you know, I didn't sign up to be a janitor.
Speaker B:I didn't sign up to be a maintenance man.
Speaker B:I didn't sign up to be a.
Speaker B:A finance budget planner.
Speaker B:I signed up to be a spiritual advisor, to walk with people on their journey to Christ and to be prayerful and to be there at deathbeds and to be there for funerals.
Speaker B:And instead I'm bogged down, you know, with these other things.
Speaker B:And, you know, so that's really tough.
Speaker B:And that's a challenge that I think is unique to church leaders.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:And I think the thing I noticed too is, you know, in my seminary training, we had one class on pastor as administrator.
Speaker A:So it was a three hour class.
Speaker A:It was in our fourth year.
Speaker A:And at that point you just were thinking about, where's your first.
Speaker A:Your first assignment?
Speaker A:You're going to be administrative?
Speaker A:Not necessarily.
Speaker A:But we didn't learn how to run meetings.
Speaker A:We didn't learn how to set up budgets or even advise leaders to do that.
Speaker A:How do you.
Speaker A:What strategies have you figured out that work well to help pastors develop skills in their members?
Speaker A:Because that's important.
Speaker A:If you want to delegate, you got to make sure your people are.
Speaker A:How do you help develop those leaders around you?
Speaker B:Well, I think you have to be.
Speaker B:Important thing is the.
Speaker B:In the Catholic Church is gift discernment.
Speaker B:You have to be.
Speaker B:The pastor has to be attentive to every gift that the parapariushioners have.
Speaker B:I know that's a big task with large congregations, but, you know, with the smaller congregations, especially where they're most in need of these resources, they need to look at the parish and say, who do I have that's really come out?
Speaker B:And really, you know, I can really trust, you know, like, if you have a bank president in your parish is your congregation, why don't you make him part of your financial advisor and help you with the finances?
Speaker B:You know, but being attentive to the gifts that people bring to the table, you know, you just have to be very observant.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, coming back to the spiritual side, you have to be really attentive to the Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:You know, I believe that's critical, and that's something that I've been really passionate about working with, listening and just Listening, be observant.
Speaker B:I think we're so busy in this culture, do, do, do, do, do.
Speaker B:But we're not stopping and stepping back and looking around and listening to the voice of the spirit, which, which takes time and patience.
Speaker B:But I think there's, there's creative ways that, that pastors can do this and you know, it can be effective.
Speaker B:But you're right, you know, about that.
Speaker B:That was.
Speaker B:I chuckled when you said about the seminary training because that's what I found in my, in my dissertation research that you know, they aren't, they are given one course on pastoral administration and you know, while ideally for at least for the Catholic Church with the shortage of priests is to have the priest, the priest like be an associate.
Speaker B:I don't know what you all have in your, in your congregation if you have, you know, where the path the priest is a newly ordained priest and a minister and they walk alongside a seasoned priest and they're at the parish learning on the job training.
Speaker B:But they're not solely responsible.
Speaker B:You know, now we have guys coming out of seminary and then they make them in charge of a parish and they don't know the first thing about the management side and the leadership side.
Speaker B:And you know, and that, that's unfortunate.
Speaker B:So I don't know how we do that.
Speaker B:You know, seminary rectors I've talked to said well we have to cram it all in.
Speaker B:We have to get so many theology, so many scriptures, so many philosop because we don't have time for one more course.
Speaker B:So if they're not getting that in seminary and they're, they're being ordained and going right into that, that parish setting, you know, what a, what we're doing a disservice to them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:At our model we, during our seminary training, early years, the first two years we are assigned to a local parish for the, on Sunday morning.
Speaker A:So we're kind of fieldwork students.
Speaker A:But you're really typically only there maybe on Sunday, maybe there's an event during the week, but you're typically just there on the weekend.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you don't really learn as much during that time.
Speaker A:On when we have a year of vicarage where you go off and spend a year at a church where you may learn more of hands on things.
Speaker A:Yeah, again that's kind of hit and miss depending upon the supervisor, the church you're in and a lot of our past because we have the same kind of a shortage.
Speaker A:Their first call is not as an associate.
Speaker A:Their first call is to sometimes a dual parish or even a smaller parish, Very few become associates.
Speaker A:So you're right.
Speaker A:With that in mind, though, how do we.
Speaker A:And the seminary is struggling with that too.
Speaker A:How do you balance the formal education with experiential learning?
Speaker A:Because we don't.
Speaker A:If you're not in a place where someone comes along, here's how you run a meeting, here's how you lead.
Speaker A:We had no classes when I was disseminating on stewardship.
Speaker A:And you're supposed to walk in, all of a sudden, know how to do stewardship in a congregation.
Speaker A:So, you know, how do you balance all that?
Speaker B:And that's the challenge.
Speaker B:And that's what I think we need to look towards these other programs.
Speaker B:We need to provide support for church leaders.
Speaker B:And I don't know if that's happening.
Speaker B:And I think you're right.
Speaker B:That need has to be met somehow.
Speaker B:And I think we have to look to outside organizations and dioceses.
Speaker B:I know you all have more formal structures as well, and maybe we have to look at those for resources, because you're right, the seminaries can't add anything more to their plate.
Speaker B:So where are they getting this kind of training?
Speaker B:And I agree that it's a challenge that we need to be alerted to and be aware for the future.
Speaker A:So it really kind of falls a lot on the pastor himself.
Speaker A:So as you think about what you've been studying, how can leaders stay adaptable and responsive to the changing needs of their congregations?
Speaker B:Well, I think they have to be open to change.
Speaker B:You know, and I.
Speaker B:We've.
Speaker B:We've talked about that before.
Speaker B:The change is very difficult, and people that are stuck in the old model that the priest does everything and the father's in charge of everything, you know, that mindset can no longer operate in this culture.
Speaker B:And we have to be able to think outside the boat, like we said, you know, outside the box.
Speaker B:My father used to say, you know, get out the boat.
Speaker B:You know, God, Jesus called Peter to get out of the boat and to go into that uncharted territory, which we need to do too, but we need to prepare the priest for that.
Speaker B:So if there's a way that seminary can.
Speaker B:Can open them to this whole bigger picture of, you know, it's the human side, the intellectual side, the.
Speaker B:The pastoral side, and open them up to being adaptable and being open to change.
Speaker B:I think the seminaries have to foster that kind of attitude, because when they get out, if they're not adaptable, if they're not ready to face changes, if they're not ready to ask the big questions, Then we're in, we're in for some trouble.
Speaker A:What kind of after seminary support does the Catholic Church provide for young pastors?
Speaker B:Well, and that, that, that I think is an issue as well.
Speaker B:There are outside organizations, like right now our diocese has contracted a Catholic leadership institute.
Speaker B:And they're supposed, they, they have an outside consultant come in, do leadership development, leadership coaching with our priests.
Speaker B:And I think it's those programs right now that have the best success rate.
Speaker B:But again, they're costly.
Speaker B:Does a bishop know about them?
Speaker B:You know, so they have some challenges too.
Speaker B:So what I found in my dissertation research is the diocese really needs to be that support.
Speaker B:Like, you know, where I work, I work for the liturgy side of it.
Speaker B:So if a priest has a question about liturgy, they call me and I'll answer the question.
Speaker B:Well, we have an HR person, we have a cfo, we have accountants.
Speaker B:So if they have issues, they need to be know who to call for help and not to be afraid to ask those questions and to seek out those resources.
Speaker B:But you're right, they have to be made aware that they exist.
Speaker B:You know, and that's another challenge.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And especially with the shortage of pastors.
Speaker A:I know you, we're experiencing a lot of clergy burnout.
Speaker A:Are you guys also, how are you handling worker wellness in your train, your organization?
Speaker B:I don't think that we are addressing that.
Speaker B:You know, we work them till you.
Speaker B:Right till they, you know, drop over.
Speaker B:I mean, unfortunately that's the case.
Speaker B:But again, if we learn how to parcel out those responsibilities and don't expect them to be chief maintenance man, chief CFO, chief, you know, and we let them look to other people for those administrative tasks then I think, and let them do that spiritual side.
Speaker B:I think that is critical.
Speaker B:But you know, they have.
Speaker B:Pastors have to be willing to let go and, and to delegate and like you said, be able to.
Speaker B:Who can I trust?
Speaker B:You know, the trust is a big issue.
Speaker B:You know, if I trust this person with my finances and they go run off or embezzle the funding, you know, how am I, how.
Speaker B:So they're ultimately responsible.
Speaker B:So I think that level of responsibility can, you know, cause burnout, because you're responsible.
Speaker B:You know, my dad used to tell me, you look at pre bishops, they're in charge of multimillion dollar corporations with all that money and finances, and yet they don't know a thing about finances and a thing about managing a corporation.
Speaker B:So you're right.
Speaker B:How do you balance the shepherding and the leadership?
Speaker B:How do you balance the pastoral and the Temporal.
Speaker B:So I think those are challenges that the church has to face.
Speaker B:And you're right, I don't think we have enough resources yet to provide that.
Speaker B:And they are getting burned out because they are expected to do everything, be everything to all people and they just can't.
Speaker B:They're human.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think it hit me for reality check when I looked at the our state form we had to fill out and said, who was like, who's basically serving as the CEO of this organization?
Speaker A:And my name was on there like, wait a minute, if this goes wrong, I'm the one going to prison.
Speaker A:So it's like we had to make sure, we make sure all of our T's were crossed and our I's were dotted, like, I'm not going to prison.
Speaker B:But I'm sure if you're a young seminarian with, you know, bright eyed about sharing the gospel and teaching Jesus message and then you realize, oh, I'm a CEO of a corporation.
Speaker B:I'm in charge of these finances.
Speaker B:I have to run a meeting.
Speaker B:You're making me fire the secretary because she's not showing up.
Speaker B:You know, they're not, that's not what they expected.
Speaker B:So, you know, my dad said in some sense we're setting them up for failure.
Speaker B:And I think that's why a lot of them do experience burnout.
Speaker B:Because, hey, you know, I signed on to be a spiritual leader.
Speaker B:I didn't sign off for all this other, you know, stuff that went along with being a leader.
Speaker A:I'm curious, what from your studies, did you have any recommendations to improve the situation for the church?
Speaker B:Well, I think, you know, having, making people aware of these organizations trying to find leadership development opportunities designed for clergy and for church leaders, even lay church leaders.
Speaker B:You know, I think having, you know, having these, these opportunities, making them available, I think also doing, having that mentorship as much as you can.
Speaker B:You know, we talked about having them with the seasoned priest.
Speaker B:I think we have to set that up.
Speaker B:And they always said that was key, you know, finding someone who's been in the church for 30 years and taken a new, you know, and doing a better job with our seminarian program.
Speaker B:Like you said about that pastoral year, they have a year where they spend.
Speaker B:Don't just make them serve at the altar.
Speaker B:Don't just make them, you know, see if there's enough candles and, you know, have them sit in a finance council meeting, have them look at the budget, have them, you know, be very, very intentional about your seminary and those pastoral years and those pastoral experiences.
Speaker B:Because unless you Are, you know, like you said, they might not ever get exposed to that till hey, I'm in this situation now, what do I do?
Speaker B:So I think there's ways but we have to be intentional about those ways.
Speaker A:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker A:I kind of wish that there was more of an, of a guided process for that year.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Yeah, the first, the first quarter of your time because you, when you just get to parish as a, in my vicarage year I was just trying to figure out where, where the bathroom was, you know, where my office was.
Speaker A:Yeah, but, but if you had it broken down, where you spend a quarter working, going to the finance meetings.
Speaker A:Where you spend a quarter working with the school.
Speaker A:If you have a school.
Speaker A:Yeah, every, everything is intentional that you get these experience.
Speaker A:Because my, the biggest thing my bishop did was we're going to make sure you preach every, you know, preach a lot and you do liturgy.
Speaker B:Yeah, same here.
Speaker A:You know, once I got that it's fine.
Speaker A:But what happens after I, you know, I'd ever run a meeting or let the person run a meeting, set up the, set up the agenda.
Speaker A:Yeah, we don't.
Speaker A:Yeah, I don't think that intentional.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's what I think has to happen, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Especially knowing that we're shortage of having these mentor priests because we don't have them anymore.
Speaker B:But having something being intentional and then the diocese, I think the diocese has to be a resource, has to be willing to be there when the window, when the priest knows and, and the priest has to know who the finance person is at the diocese so they can call them for help, you know, or who's the HR person.
Speaker B:Oh yes, I need your help because I'm having a staff issue or I'm having a budgeting problem or I need you to come in and teach me or we have a, you know, development office where we're fundraising.
Speaker B:Like you said.
Speaker B:Teach me how to run a stewardship campaign.
Speaker B:Teach me how to.
Speaker B:If they know who those people are, you know, they seek them, they can seek them out.
Speaker B:So I think we have to just be more intentional of supporting our clergy and our church leaders in finding support for this leaders their leadership role.
Speaker A:Oh, I love that.
Speaker A:I'm curious what have you.
Speaker A:Give me an example of effective leadership you've seen and who kind of how that, how that laid out.
Speaker B:Well, I think it's kind of interesting.
Speaker B:I'm going to have to give credit to Pope Francis because you know, he's very revolutionary in his way of thinking.
Speaker B: ity, where he started in year: Speaker B:So he, we've.
Speaker B:He listened to the people in the pew on the local level.
Speaker B:So we all gathered together, every diocese in the whole world gathered together to listen to the people, the grassroots.
Speaker B:And then we compiled, compiled all.
Speaker B:We compiled all those reports, and then they made their way up the chain to Rome.
Speaker B:And he sat there and he had these, these meetings where people, they sat down and they just talked and actively listened and actually actively heard what the, what is really, you know, happening.
Speaker B:And I think that was revolutionary.
Speaker B:So while.
Speaker B:And he opened it up to the.
Speaker B:These meetings in Rome weren't just bishops, which was the first time this ever happened.
Speaker B:They were women and laity and young and old and sitting at the same table.
Speaker B:So a cardinal might be sitting next to a young person from another country, and they listened to each other and talk.
Speaker B:And I think that's one way, I think his effective leadership style in the Synod on Synodality is a model for how we should be conducting leadership and how we should be synodal leaders.
Speaker B:And I know you all Lutherans like to use that word, synod a lot.
Speaker B:And synod, though, means journeying together, walking together, listening to one another.
Speaker B:And, you know, I think that that for me, is a great example of what we should be doing and supporting one another and listening to each other.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker A:I don't think sometimes laypeople's voice gets heard a lot, especially in upper leadership, and I think it's really important for that voice to be heard.
Speaker A:I also want to go back to something you said earlier, and I want to kind of tap into your experience.
Speaker A:You talked about, and we have the same struggle in our Lutheran Church as well, is how do we find and make use of women serving in the church.
Speaker A:How have you kind of broken some of those guidelines to help people figure out?
Speaker A:Because in your church body like mine, women don't serve as pastors and priests, but I think they're underutilized in terms of their ability to provide their gifts and talents to the church.
Speaker A:How have you guys effectively or continue to kind of work to get women more active in the church?
Speaker B:Well, and that's one of the things that came out of the synod that the Pope said that we do under value women.
Speaker B:And I think for me, you know, I was, you know, when I was familiar with other denominations like Lutheran and other ones that do have women pastors, they would ask me, they would Say, well, don't you wish you had the, the caller?
Speaker B:And I said, no, I don't, because I can do things.
Speaker B:I just have to go in a different direction.
Speaker B:So, yes, it's been, it's been hard, it's been challenging.
Speaker B:But like I said, there are role models.
Speaker B:There are very inspirational women like that sister that I told you about that probably inspired me to do what I do.
Speaker B:You know, I think I can be a role model for other people.
Speaker B:There are a lot of women who just don't get recognized.
Speaker B:But I think, you know, the Pope Francis has appointed women to the, to hide the Roman offices in the Vatican.
Speaker B:And I think that there's, there's.
Speaker B:We're opening the doors.
Speaker B:And I think, me, I do think myself a revolutionary.
Speaker B:A lot of times, you know, I have to prove myself a little bit harder.
Speaker B:You know, I'll be in a room full, full of men, you know, or I'll be with priests and I'll be.
Speaker B:But, you know, I just, once I show them I know the theology of the church.
Speaker B:I know leadership.
Speaker B:I'm very educated.
Speaker B:And when I speak that way, oh, we didn't know.
Speaker B:We're sorry, you know, they, the tables turn.
Speaker B:So, you know, where it's, It's a challenge.
Speaker B:I think the church is getting better at it, I think with the shortage of priests.
Speaker B:While women's ordination will, you know, may never be, but, you know, they are looking at maybe women and says the act and that, that could happen maybe down the road.
Speaker B:But I think women serving in leadership roles are critical.
Speaker B:The more we have the shortage of priests.
Speaker A:So you work in faith formation kind of tell me what, what, what process is that, how that look like in the Catholic Church?
Speaker A:I know we have some of that in our church body as well.
Speaker B:Well, actually, I'm in the liturgy world.
Speaker B:I'm the director of worship.
Speaker B:So my job is even more challenging because you're right, I'm dealing with priests.
Speaker B:I'm dealing with, you know, telling them how to run the liturgy.
Speaker B:And they're like, what are you going to tell us?
Speaker B:And then when I know my rubrics and I know my structure, what's supposed to happen, and I know the theology behind it, they're like, whoa, you know, so, you know, we do have, we try to reduce, have some formation.
Speaker B:I think it's struggles.
Speaker B:I think our struggle is having an educated laity.
Speaker B:You know, people just don't know their faith.
Speaker B:And, you know, when I hear, you know, parents don't know the basic tenets of the prayers to teach their children, you know, that.
Speaker B:That saddens me.
Speaker B:So where, you know, I think we need a more.
Speaker B:We need people, more capable leadership people to be more educated on their faith.
Speaker B:And I don't know how we do that, because right now that's not happening.
Speaker A:Our church body just got a grant to actually get our young people to be more connected to the liturgy.
Speaker A:So it's kind of interesting.
Speaker A:That's your.
Speaker A:Your area of focus.
Speaker A:That's going to be a.
Speaker A:I'm kind of curious how our church body actually moves forward with that, going forward, kind of getting our young people to have a deeper appreciation of the liturgy and the power the liturgy has in our life.
Speaker B:But I think the young people really hunger for that because, you know, I'm teaching undergrads right now, Intro to Catholic theology for Ohio Dominican University in Columbus.
Speaker B:And, you know, they've.
Speaker B:They've really.
Speaker B:They're hungry to tell them, you know, what our belief systems are.
Speaker B:And once they learn it, they.
Speaker B:They're like, they're hungry for some more.
Speaker B:But I think there's a gap that happened, and especially in the Catholic Church.
Speaker B: You know, in the: Speaker B:So there was a time when faith formation consisted of making crafts and singing Kumbaya and Jesus Loves Me.
Speaker B:But, you know, so it's like, then they started, well, wait, we need to get back to center.
Speaker B:So there's a whole generation, I'd say my generation, who learned those to make crosses out of Popsicle sticks and didn't really, really engage in our faith.
Speaker B:So I think now we're lacking.
Speaker B:We have this whole population of the laity who's not very formed in their faith.
Speaker B:And then we're expecting them to teach the youth.
Speaker B:And, you know, and there's that gap.
Speaker B:So I think trying to be more, you know, we have to be more intentional about forming our faithful, our congregations in their faith, so that they can teach it, pass it on to the next generation.
Speaker B:Because we can't rely on culture anymore.
Speaker B:We don't live in a Christian culture like we used to.
Speaker B:Church is not at the center of people's world.
Speaker B:They have sports on Sunday mornings.
Speaker B:And, you know, it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:We're competing with all these secular activities.
Speaker B:So finding people to pass on the faith, I think is the biggest challenge I'm seeing at the present time.
Speaker A:You know, I'm curious.
Speaker A:One of the Controversies that's always going into church, especially lately, is if we, if young people aren't in our church, we have to abandon liturgy and give them something different.
Speaker A:Being someone who works in the liturgy field, how do you answer when churches are like, there's no young people here.
Speaker A:We have to go bring a praise ban in and get rid of all of our liturgy, historic liturgy, to get young people to come.
Speaker A:Since you work so closely with young people, tell us a little bit about how you approach that concept of do we just throw this out and do something different?
Speaker B:Yeah, I hear that a lot, and I think we have to find that again.
Speaker B:It's all about balance.
Speaker B:I think we bring them to, if we bring them to a liturgy that's bad preaching, music is boring and bad.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not saying we have to entertain or bring a praise band in, but we have to keep our structure.
Speaker B:And because it's very traditional, you know, it does have a long history and, you know, we've, we've preserved it this long, but I think what we have to do is look at it.
Speaker B:Are we doing it effectively?
Speaker B:And, you know, and are we, and are we explaining what we're doing?
Speaker B:Is there some kind of context behind it?
Speaker B:You know, literature can be very formative.
Speaker B:But I agree, I have a nine year old and a seven year old to get them to pay attention in Mass.
Speaker B:Oh, this is boring.
Speaker B:Oh, I'm, you know, they'd rather be punching each other and stuff, but I say, no, let's listen, let's.
Speaker B:And then at home, they'll mimic the prayers.
Speaker B:They'll mimic the sign of the cross.
Speaker B:You know, they'll, they'll, you know, if a prayer breaks out, they'll finish it.
Speaker B:You know, so I think it is, it's a teachable.
Speaker B:The liturgy teaches, informs.
Speaker B:But first of all, it has to be good liturgy.
Speaker B:And second of all, we just have to stick with it, inform people of why we do what we do.
Speaker B:And I think that that's critical.
Speaker A:So I love to ask my guest this question.
Speaker A:What do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker B:Well, I want people to, to realize that I was passionate about church leadership and that I'm not afraid to ask the challenging questions.
Speaker B:And a lot of times people look at me with three heads in a meeting when I ask the challenging questions.
Speaker B:But I do, because I'm not afraid to speak out.
Speaker B:You know, there are times in my life when I try to stay quiet, but the Holy Spirit won't let me stay quiet.
Speaker B:You know how that I'm sure You've had that experience before.
Speaker A:Jeremiah Bowman, right?
Speaker B:I'm not going to comment.
Speaker B:I'm not going to comment.
Speaker B:I'm not going to comment.
Speaker B:Next thing I know, I'm commenting in the whole thing room go silent.
Speaker B:But, you know, I feel like these questions need to be asked and these things need to be wrestled with.
Speaker B:And you know, I wasn't afraid to say them and to speak out and to, to.
Speaker B:I want to see the church grow and thrive because I think it is divinely inspired.
Speaker B:I told one of my old bosses that I said if I was just concentrating on the human element, I would be an atheist now because of what I've seen, how flawed human beings have operated.
Speaker B:But I know down deep in my heart that there's something more and that Jesus is leading and driving the ship and, you know, we just have to stay the course.
Speaker A:If you had a message for the church going forward about leadership, what would it be?
Speaker B:Well, I think like you said, being aware that there is a need for leadership development among clergy.
Speaker B:You know, they have suffering, burnout.
Speaker B:They can't be expected to be all things to all people.
Speaker B:They have to be, you know, you have to have, you have to address the issue and we have to realize that it is an issue and we have to do something about it going forward.
Speaker B:I think that's what I'd like to.
Speaker B:The message to be communicated because I see what happened in my own experience, what happens when it gets dysfunctional.
Speaker B:I've seen the hurt, I've seen the anger.
Speaker B:I've seen the.
Speaker B:And something that I'm sure you familiar with is that people associate the church with Jesus and with God.
Speaker B:So if something goes wrong, if I see a priest scandalizing or stealing money or abusing pe, sexual abusing children, that's going to affect my faith in God, you know, And I think that holds church leaders to an even more accountability than say the CEO of Enron or, or Microsoft, you know, because you are affecting people's relationship with God and that, that's even, I think in my opinion, that's, you know, something horrible that we, we, we don't want to do.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Because I could just buy a different computer if I don't like Microsoft.
Speaker B:But if I abandon my faith, and I've seen a lot of people abandon their faith in God because of the church scandal.
Speaker B:And you have to remind them it's flawed human beings.
Speaker B:It's not the divinely instituted body of Christ.
Speaker B:But, you know, how do you, how do you reconcile that?
Speaker B:So church leaders have to take A good hard look at how they're operating because of that.
Speaker A:So is there anything I haven't asked you that I should have asked you?
Speaker B:Well, no, no, really, I just wanted to kind of tell you what I've been up to.
Speaker B:And you know, as you know, I've been saying about Pope Francis has sent it on synodality.
Speaker B:Well, I've developed a program called Gifted in the Spirit, which it's a leadership development program for church leaders based on those principles of synod and citadelity.
Speaker B:Listening to the spirit, discernment, you know, active listening, you know, coaching, mentoring, asking the right big questions, you know.
Speaker B:So that's something I'm really excited about developing and making available.
Speaker A:So when, when will that be available for people to kind of check out?
Speaker B:Well, it's kind of in progress, so it's up and I have a LinkedIn page.
Speaker B:I have some materials on it, but I'm just trying to work it out and figure out when I can launch it.
Speaker A:So where can people find you and follow where the project is going and know when it's going to come out?
Speaker B:Now they can follow me on LinkedIn.
Speaker B:I'm there.
Speaker B:And Bernadette McMasterskyim and gifted in the Spirit is my leadership development program that I'm hoping to launch.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:So cool.
Speaker A:When you get that launch, come back out and we'll talk about it and we'll delve into it some more.
Speaker B:Sounds great.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Well, thanks for being such a wonderful guest and for having this conversation, an important conversation about church leadership because like you said, the church is a.
Speaker A:The leaders to the front lines of people, kind of their first experience sometimes with Jesus.
Speaker A:And we want that experience to be one that we know we're flawed, but that is one that doesn't lead people away from the gospel and our Savior as opposed to leading us to.
Speaker A:Leading us to him.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:So blessings on what you do and thank you for the leadership you provide.
Speaker B:Thank you.
