Navigating Cultural Complexities: Lessons from a CIA Veteran
Our conversation today features the esteemed Jeffrey Sanow, a veteran CIA intelligence officer and security expert, whose extensive career encompasses critical global operations and strategic advisory roles to senior policymakers. With a profound focus on preventing the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, Jeffrey has amassed a wealth of experience across diverse regions, including South Asia, the Eastern Mediterranean, and the Middle East. He emphasizes the importance of understanding cultural nuances and implementing effective communication strategies, especially in complex situations that require diplomatic finesse. Furthermore, he shares insights from his newly published book, "Human for Humanity," which seeks to bridge the gap between American perceptions and the rich tapestry of global cultures. We delve into the significance of travel, cross-cultural interactions, and the personal narratives that shape our understanding of the world.
Takeaways:
- Jeffrey Sanow's extensive experience in intelligence operations highlights the importance of understanding interpersonal dynamics in communication.
- His insights reveal how a comprehensive grasp of diverse cultures can enhance the effectiveness of intelligence work.
- The discussion emphasizes the vital role of adaptability and cultural sensitivity in navigating complex global environments.
- Sanow's career illustrates the necessity of strategic thinking and operational execution in addressing contemporary security challenges.
- The podcast underscores how personal experiences in foreign environments shape one's worldview and professional capabilities.
- Sanow's emphasis on the significance of mentorship and building relationships reflects the foundational elements of successful leadership.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- CIA
- Peace Corps
- Ohio State University
- Sam Houston State University
- Wall Street Journal
Transcript
My guest today is Jeffrey Sunow.
Speaker A:He's a veteran CIA intelligence officer and security expert with a long standing career in critical global operations, serving in the CIA's National Clandestine Service and working with senior policymakers in the Office of Vice President and of National Security Council to support policies related to and preventing the sale, transfer and and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction.
Speaker A:Jeffrey worked extensively in South Asia, the Eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East.
Speaker A:His proficiency lies in leveraging civil business tools for strategic execution of intelligence operations, showcasing an innovative approach to addressing complex challenges.
Speaker A:His work, with extensive travel across Europe, Africa, the Middle east and Asia have afforded him a profound and professional personal understanding of of the three monotheistic religions.
Speaker A:His diverse experiences have provided him with unique insights into the intricate social constructs and inherent conflicts.
Speaker A:We welcome him to the podcast.
Speaker A:Well, Jeffrey, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:How are you doing today?
Speaker B:I'm doing well.
Speaker B:Thank you for for having me.
Speaker B:How are you today?
Speaker A:I'm great.
Speaker A:I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you.
Speaker A:Exciting topics that we have always can talk about how we can better communicate, especially in some difficult situations.
Speaker A:And you've seemed like you've been in quite a few of those.
Speaker A:So I'm looking forward to what insights you can provide for the audience.
Speaker B:Likewise.
Speaker A:So I'd like to ask my guests this question.
Speaker A:What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Speaker B:That would have been when I came back from overseas to work at an office in Northern Virginia inside the CIA, and the head of that office told me that I needed to get to know each one of the people that was working for me because I had seven or eight people that I was supervising and it was very important that I got to know each one of them.
Speaker B:Almost all the communication was done long distance, so in writing, via email.
Speaker B:So it was very important that I learn their buttons, what buttons to push or what buttons to avoid.
Speaker B:And you know, that comes that's more important than the work, actually, because if you're pushing the wrong buttons, no work is going to get done.
Speaker A:It's very true.
Speaker A:Pushing the wrong buttons can also be not good for people you're working with as well, right?
Speaker B:Yes, sir.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:You know, I'm always curious.
Speaker A:People like yourself, I'm sure there are people in your life who served as an inspiration or mentor for you.
Speaker A:Who are some of those people in your life that you want to kind of give a shout out to.
Speaker B:Much of my career was a little bit standalone, so I didn't have a lot of significant mentors early probably later on, especially when I was back in headquarters, would have been a gentleman by the name of Kevin Hulbert.
Speaker B:He was a co worker, colleague, and supervisor.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And he fit all those roles.
Speaker B:Even after I had retired, and I believe he retired about the same time, I continued doing work for him.
Speaker B:I went back overseas with him, or for him, rather, and worked for a year back in Islamabad, Pakistan, where I was head of intelligence and security for the US Company that was building the US Embassy.
Speaker B:What that really means is I had to keep construction workers from doing crazy things.
Speaker B:They were not in Alabama anymore or Louisiana anymore.
Speaker B:They were, in fact, in Islamabad, Pakistan, where they take a dim view sometimes of people doing crazy things.
Speaker A:Needless to say.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker B:Not needless to say.
Speaker B:It was very important that I said it.
Speaker B:They didn't all understand that.
Speaker A:Yeah, those different environments can be a little challenging.
Speaker B:Yes, sir.
Speaker A:I'm curious, as you think about your background, what led you into a career in intelligence and security?
Speaker B:I think I have to go back a little further than that.
Speaker B:What led me overseas.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Because that's what led me into the Agency.
Speaker B:I grew up on a small farm in Ohio.
Speaker B:Parents were divorced.
Speaker B:The usual kind of silliness that goes with divorced parents, remarriage, step siblings, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:And so that.
Speaker B:They divorced when I was 11.
Speaker B:So by the time I hit 18, I was ready to go away.
Speaker B:So I went to Ohio State University, which was only two hours away from home, which was not quite far enough.
Speaker B:So at the tender young age of 20, I dropped out of college and joined the Peace Corps.
Speaker B:I thought, let's go to a different continent.
Speaker B:Maybe that'll get me far enough away from my family.
Speaker B:And so I went to Tunisia for two years, learned to speak Arabic.
Speaker B:I was an agricultural mechanic.
Speaker B:So I'm working on farm machinery the whole time.
Speaker B:And it was great.
Speaker B:Anybody in your audience that is bored with their life that's willing to take the risk, I highly recommend Peace Corps.
Speaker B:And I will tell you, it's very low risk.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Because it's the US Government.
Speaker B:If you, you know, you make it through all the interview process, it's not really hard to make it through that.
Speaker B:You just got to have some kind of skill, but beyond the pulse.
Speaker B:Not much beyond the pulse, but a little beyond the pulse.
Speaker B:You have some kind of skill, have some kind of willingness to live overseas.
Speaker B:And the Peace Corps, you have to remember, when Kennedy invented the Peace Corps, it had three objectives.
Speaker B:One, to take the US Culture and introduce people overseas to that culture on a personal basis.
Speaker B:Two, take a skill.
Speaker B:It could be teaching English.
Speaker B:We had lots of English teachers where I was.
Speaker B:It could be teaching agriculture.
Speaker B:That's what I taught.
Speaker B:I took care of agriculture equipment.
Speaker B:It could be building schools, could be drilling wells.
Speaker B:They do a lot of those things.
Speaker B:So again, one of the things that we don't do in the US as much as we used to, since we did away with the draft, is we don't really cut that umbilical cord very well.
Speaker B:So Peace Corps will cut that umbilical cord in a fairly low pain method.
Speaker B:Again, it's the US Government.
Speaker B:If you get really sick, they're going to put you on a plane and bring you or take you to a government hospital someplace.
Speaker B:It's been done.
Speaker B:I had to go to one.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:So they're going to take very good care of you.
Speaker B:So anybody that's looking to break the mold, that's what I wanted to do.
Speaker B:The mold of graduate college, get married, have 2.3 kids, have a mortgage, two cars in the garage, a cat and a dog.
Speaker B:I wanted to break that mold.
Speaker B:And so I did.
Speaker B:And I'm very happy I did.
Speaker B:So that got me overseas.
Speaker B:I went to Tunisia for two years, learned to speak Arabic.
Speaker B:After two years, all I had was Ohio State University looking back at me.
Speaker B:So I thought, nope, don't want to do that.
Speaker B:So I extended and transferred to Gabon, which is in Central Africa.
Speaker B:It's right on the equator.
Speaker B:I impressed my mother with how ignorant I was when I said, yes, mother, I'm going to go to Gabon.
Speaker B:And she said, that's where Albert Schweitzer's hospital is.
Speaker B:And I said, who?
Speaker B:She was not impressed.
Speaker B:Do you know who Albert Schweitzer is?
Speaker A:I do, yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I had no Clue.
Speaker B:I was 22 years old.
Speaker B:What do I know?
Speaker B:So she was really not very impressed with how smart I was.
Speaker B:So at any rate, I went to Gabon for another year and a half.
Speaker B:I met a university professor there from Sam Houston State University in Huntsville, Texas, who said he'd get me enrolled, help me find a place to stay, and help me find a job with the university.
Speaker B:What More could a 23 year old ask for?
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Off I went to Sam Houston, finished up my college degrees, got my bachelor's of my master's, and my first job out of college was working at a turkey processing plant in Waco, Texas.
Speaker B:After about two days, I was pretty sure that that was not the job my mother envisioned for me.
Speaker B:So I started looking around.
Speaker B:Answered an ad in the Wall Street Journal back in the day in newspapers when they had that weekly job insert.
Speaker B:And as they say, the rest is history.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:I just wanted to get back overseas.
Speaker B:I wanted to get back into that life.
Speaker B:You know, my dad used to tell me that a saying from World War II once, Johnny has experienced gay Perry, you can't keep him down on the farm.
Speaker B:So I, I was very much looking forward to moving back overseas.
Speaker B:I spent a lot of my time overseas since then.
Speaker B:Since I retired, I've spent a lot of my time overseas.
Speaker B:My second wife is Ugandan.
Speaker B:I like to say she's like my coffee.
Speaker B:She's hot, black and bitter.
Speaker B:So she hates it when I say that too.
Speaker B:Not in the rumor.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:She does.
Speaker B:She hates it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I didn't see anything flying across the room at you, so I figured she wasn't in the room.
Speaker B:No, no, no, no.
Speaker B:She's all the way up in Tampa.
Speaker B:She's a four hour drive away, so I'm safe until I get home.
Speaker A:Oh, she hears a podcast.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So I'm curious, you've seemed to spend a lot of time overseas.
Speaker A:For those who don't travel a lot, I'm kind of curious, what about that lifestyle was so appealing to you?
Speaker B:Part of it goes back to the quote that my dad said, which is to refine it a little bit.
Speaker B:Once you start to see some of the different ways that people live, if you're going to adapt and adjust, you learn to adapt and adjust and appreciate the fact that, hey, America is the greatest country in the world.
Speaker B:I will say that till I die.
Speaker B:But there are some other good points of other places, and once you get a chance to experience them, you can appreciate them.
Speaker B:And it's, it's a very nice way to live.
Speaker B:So I, I was exposed.
Speaker B:I mean, my, my now ex wife's first tour, first time overseas was New Delhi, India.
Speaker B:That's a tough place to start.
Speaker B:At the time when we went there, and I forget when it was early 90s, I used to tell her that we're starting in New Delhi because every place else is up from here.
Speaker B:And she had to adjust and she did a great job.
Speaker B:In my book, which was published about three weeks ago, I credit her with everything that I was able to do.
Speaker B:And I knew she had adjusted to life in, in New Delhi when after we'd been there about nine months, somebody sent us a video of a school bus going along, you know, the yellow school bus.
Speaker B:The lights come on, kids jump on, you go another, you know, six or seven houses.
Speaker B:It repeats the process and she Looked at that and went, wow, that looks really strange to me.
Speaker B:That's what I knew she'd adjusted.
Speaker A:Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker B:I'm curious and like I said, I give her lots of credit.
Speaker B:I have to give her credit.
Speaker B:I credit my book to her.
Speaker B:I could have never done what I did without her and all her fantastic support.
Speaker B:I'm sad that it ended the way it did, but that's life.
Speaker B:Sometimes she does get credit for much of what I was able to do.
Speaker A:I'm curious, as you think about the places you've visited, what was the most challenging environment during your time in the CIA?
Speaker B:Well, there's a couple of different types of challenges.
Speaker B:One is going to be the work related challenge.
Speaker B:Those challenges were all the same every place that we operate overseas, regardless, with the exception of what's known as the Five Eyes.
Speaker B:And those are our five closest allies out of World War II, which is the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and US.
Speaker B:Outside of those countries, every place we go to is, is they don't like spies in any country.
Speaker B:In every country in the world, being a spy is illegal.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So there's not one place that's particularly more difficult than others.
Speaker B:There are some more hostile environments.
Speaker B:There are some less forgiving environments, but they're all very unpleasant.
Speaker B:If you are arrested, some, as I said, more than others.
Speaker B:We have been blessed as an organization that we have not had many losses of life, we have not had many imprisonments.
Speaker B:I'm trying to think we've had any loss of life from the agency.
Speaker B:I don't believe we have, not since World War II.
Speaker B:If it's a war zone, that's a different, that's a different discussion.
Speaker B:Non war zones I don't believe we have.
Speaker B:Because countries don't like it when each, when you kill each other's spies.
Speaker B:That really makes for a bad message.
Speaker B:Yeah, because if, if you can kill my years, you know they're gonna kill my spies and I'm gonna kill your spies.
Speaker B:And that's not a place we want to go.
Speaker B:So generally, yeah, you're going to be uncomfortable for a while, a couple weeks maybe, but you'll get home.
Speaker B:So with that in mind, that's always the environment that you're operating and you always have your radar on.
Speaker B:Doesn't matter if you're working or not working, you always have your radar on.
Speaker B:On a more personal level, as far as lifestyle and living, probably the toughest one to adjust to would have been New Delhi.
Speaker B:Keeping in mind I'd already lived overseas for a couple Years I was familiar with what would be called the third world environment or a developing country environment.
Speaker B:You know, the pollution, the buses, the crowds, noise, that stuff didn't really bother me.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean you don't notice it.
Speaker B:And driving in New Delhi was one of those experiences that's tough to translate into words that are not simply four letters.
Speaker B:So you had to learn to adjust to it.
Speaker B:I drove there.
Speaker B:My, my, my now ex wife did not drive there.
Speaker B:We had a driver in case she needed to go anyplace that we used.
Speaker B:Most businessmen there have drivers.
Speaker B:We had a very, we had an excellent driver and he actually became very, very close to our youngest daughter to the point that she would open the door and if she did not see him out there, she'd start crying and throwing a temper can.
Speaker B:It was hilarious.
Speaker B:He was a great, great guy.
Speaker B:And overall, yeah, it was kind of a tough, tough adjustment.
Speaker B:The first time my, my wife went to the market, she came back with a moldy tomato and said this was the only thing I recognized.
Speaker B:I didn't recognize anything.
Speaker B:Now fast forward end of three years and she's going to the market once a week.
Speaker B:She's, she's speaking in Hindi.
Speaker B:She can ask for things in, in, in Hindi.
Speaker B:She can ask for quantities in Hindi.
Speaker B:She can understand cost in Hindi.
Speaker B:So she managed to adjust very well.
Speaker B:Me, I never, I never adjusted to Hindi because I didn't need to.
Speaker B:The business language was English.
Speaker A:Well, I love that.
Speaker A:So tell us about your new book that just came out.
Speaker B:Well, I conveniently have a copy right here.
Speaker A:That's always a good thing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I keep it handy.
Speaker B:My book is called Human for Humanity.
Speaker B:HUMINT stands for Human Intelligence.
Speaker B:That's what I collected.
Speaker B:You have sigint, which is Signals Intelligence, and elint, which is Electronics Intelligence.
Speaker B:That's what NSA collects.
Speaker B:Generally the Agency collects humit.
Speaker B:So what I did with my book is it talks very little about intelligence and obviously there's nothing operational.
Speaker B:The CIA had to approve the book.
Speaker B:That's a, that's a letter, an agreement I sign when I retire.
Speaker B:So there's nothing particularly sexy from that point.
Speaker B:Although I do talk about some of the, some of the characters at headquarters that I worked with when I came back and how much fun they were.
Speaker B:And let me just say this to, to assure your listeners that the, the working level people inside the cra, CIA rather are the best that this country has to offer.
Speaker B:They're hard working, they're dedicated, they're diligent.
Speaker B:I, you know, I had people I thought I got in early, I had people that showed up before I got in and I was usually in by 5:30 and you know, that was as much to beat the traffic as anything.
Speaker B:But still other people were there, they put in their 8, 10, 12 hour days.
Speaker B:So very dedicated, hard working.
Speaker B:But what I look at in my book is Americans as a general rule are fenced in by a really big body water on the left side and a really big body of water on the right side and a really cold place to the north.
Speaker B:So they don't travel much outside of the US and you know, we can make all jokes about Canada being the 51st state that you want.
Speaker B:So even going to Canada doesn't quite qualify as foreign travel.
Speaker B:Mexico a little more so, but Canada not so much.
Speaker B:So what I wanted to do is I wanted to bring those countries home to people at the five foot level we get to see on the news.
Speaker B:You know, you get your two and a half minute story about something that happens in France or Russia or wherever, but I wanted to bring the five foot level from some of the countries that I was able to visit.
Speaker B:And you know, I was blessed to visit what is arguably the second most important city in Christianity, which is Damascus.
Speaker B:I've been to Damascus probably a hundred times.
Speaker B:If you are familiar with the.
Speaker B:Oh, I bet you are familiar with the Bible.
Speaker B:Acts chapter nine.
Speaker B:Sorry about that.
Speaker B:Acts chapter nine talks about Saul's conversion to Paul on the road to Damascus.
Speaker B:And then Ananias the bishop receives a dream and is told to go to the man from Tarsus on the street called Straight.
Speaker B:That's Acts, Acts chapter nine.
Speaker B:And the street called Straight still exists.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:I've walked down the street called Straight.
Speaker B:I used to do that every time I went there.
Speaker B:I would go to St.
Speaker B:Paul's excuse me, St.
Speaker B:Paul's Chapel, which was built at the location that they believe he was lowered over the wall.
Speaker B:So how cool is it to be able to walk through biblical history?
Speaker B:I'm guessing it's hard for you to find something much cooler than that.
Speaker B:I know for me it's, it's, it's hard to find something much cooler than that.
Speaker A:Most definitely, yeah.
Speaker B:I'm just a regular Lutheran guy.
Speaker B:I was born, raised and still am Lutheran.
Speaker B:Nonetheless, when you start to look at those kinds of places and the street called street, if you remember, there's also, I think it's written about in, in Acts chapter nine, Paul's underground chapel.
Speaker B:And that's just off the street called Street.
Speaker B:I think I measured it on a map.
Speaker B:It's 700ft off the street called Straight.
Speaker B:I used to go there every time I went to Damascus.
Speaker B:And I'd go down, I'd go down into the underground chapel and I'd sit down there and I'd say a prayer, you know, God, please help me be safe on my work here.
Speaker B:And then I'd go on my merry way.
Speaker B:But again, they have pictures of every Pope going back to St.
Speaker B:Paul on the wall of that, going around that underground chapel.
Speaker B:Just the fascination of our religious history, when we actually step back and take a look at it, is very heartening.
Speaker B:I know that just north of Damascus there are two monasteries.
Speaker B:There's many monasteries.
Speaker B:There's two in particular.
Speaker B:And the most important one is the monastery, the Holy Mother Monastery of Sednaya, or Sednaya Holy Mother Monastery, something to that effect.
Speaker B:I visited there many times and you know, that was built by emperor Justinian the first in like the year 450.
Speaker B:I mean, before, before Muhammad was even a twinkle in his granddaddy's eye, they built this monastery.
Speaker B:So again, the history and the depth just is mind numbing what they do there.
Speaker B:You can go into the monastery and as you go up the steps, there's a place that shows a depression where they spilled some water that they were carrying up to take into, into the monastery.
Speaker B:And they saw a vision of the Holy Mother in that puddle and they've marked that location.
Speaker B:And that very same vat of water is now in the basement of that monastery.
Speaker B:It might be a little diluted by now, who knows.
Speaker B:But nonetheless, right the, the same source.
Speaker B:And so you go there and you go down, you go into the basement and this is where everybody writes their prayers and sticks it in the wall.
Speaker B:And they'll take a piece of cotton and they will dip it into that container of water and give.
Speaker B:Put in a Ziploc bag and give it to you to take home.
Speaker B:So you're taking home water, a sample that, that the Holy Mother showed herself in.
Speaker B:So I mean, how cool is that?
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:This kind of history is lost.
Speaker B:When you look at the politics of the Middle east.
Speaker B:It kind of makes you want to bang your head on the wall.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But that is what's important to the history of, of the United States and to Christianity and, and we were founded as a Christian country, so it's very, very important to us as well.
Speaker B:And as I said, I was blessed to be able to go.
Speaker B:I went to that monastery probably four or five times.
Speaker B:There's a couple other monasteries that I was Able to visit.
Speaker B:And, and these are pilgrimage, pilgrimage sites for Christian pilgrims to go there.
Speaker B: over a thousand years, almost: Speaker B:1500 years.
Speaker B:Anyway, so there's just so many fascinating places out there.
Speaker B:And that's why I wrote my book.
Speaker B:I wanted to bring some of those fascinating places home to Americans.
Speaker B:I want to bring some of the less fascinating places home to Americans.
Speaker B:You know, one of the most fun countries I've ever been in is Oman.
Speaker B:I think as a young man you probably read Sinbad the sailor.
Speaker B:Yes, he sailed from Oman.
Speaker B:They have a mock up of his ship on one of the traffic circles in Oman.
Speaker B:And so this is the history boys like you and I read about when we won, when we were young and we imagined, wow, wonder what that was like.
Speaker B:So you have that fascination.
Speaker B:You go a little bit further north and, and it's a little bit more of a sad story.
Speaker B:Lebanon.
Speaker B:In my book I compare Lebanon to Whitney Houston.
Speaker B:You are old enough, I suspect, to remember when Whitney Houston came out.
Speaker B:How would you describe Whitney Houston when she first came on the music scene?
Speaker A:I remember her voice was one that was angelic.
Speaker A:It was amazing to hear her sing.
Speaker A:There was no other vocalist that I could think of in my day that could rival Whitney Houston's voice.
Speaker B:And on top of that, beautiful, elegant, talented.
Speaker B:The whole shooting match, right.
Speaker B:And it didn't end very well.
Speaker B:No, sadly, Beirut and Lebanon is pretty much the same way.
Speaker B:Beirut at one time was called the Pearl of the Mediterranean.
Speaker B:You had, it was a French colony, so you had the French influence, you had the North African influence, you had the Turkish influence, you had Iranian influence.
Speaker B:Beirut is a major port city.
Speaker B:So you had all the port court influence that comes with that.
Speaker B:And it, it just developed into a fascinating open society, compliments of the crusaders.
Speaker B:They managed to deposit a lot of blue eyed DNA when they were moving through there.
Speaker B:So you have a lot of beautiful blue eyed Lebanese women.
Speaker B:Anybody who will argue with the statement that Lebanese women are the most beautiful in the Middle east have never been to the Middle east and everybody agrees they tend to be the most beautiful.
Speaker B:So it's a fascinating history, a fascinating country.
Speaker B: hen fast forward to about the: Speaker B:So it's, it's it's just really, really sad to me.
Speaker B:Again, that's why it's compared to, to Whitney Houston.
Speaker B:Whitney Houston had a very sad ending.
Speaker B:I mean, I, I hope she was resting in heaven because she was such as you said, an angelic voice when she came on the scene.
Speaker B:Lebanon and Beirut was the same way.
Speaker B:When it was at its pinnacle, it was where everybody wanted to go.
Speaker B:And it has unfortunately deteriorated to the point that you don't really want to go there.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:That's what I talk about in my book.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You bring so much information that we probably don't think about.
Speaker A:I think because we are like you say, we kind of travel within the United States and you don't see many holy places in Ohio.
Speaker B:Not spelled the way you want to spell it.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:The way.
Speaker A:Spell the way you spell it.
Speaker A:By the way, I don't, I don't think you knew this.
Speaker A:We didn't talk about it before we got on the podcast.
Speaker A:I'm actually a Lutheran pastor, so we have, we, we share that.
Speaker B:I know that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:See.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I'm actually president of the church council at the Lutheran church I go to here in north of Tampa.
Speaker A:That's so neat.
Speaker A:So for people who pick up your book, what do you hope they take away from reading your book?
Speaker B:Let me, if.
Speaker B:If you'll just humor me for a second and I will show you exactly what I want them to take away from my book.
Speaker B:That is the last page of my book.
Speaker B:That is what 45 years looks like.
Speaker B:Because this is me at the age of 20 in North Africa as a Peace Corps volunteer.
Speaker B:That's me at the age of 65.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:That's what 45 years looks like.
Speaker B:But what's important is the journey.
Speaker B:It's not this guy or this guy.
Speaker B:It's the journey.
Speaker B:And my concluding statement is a modification of William Shakespeare from Julius Caesar.
Speaker B:And it says, cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of adventure.
Speaker B:I want people to go on adventure.
Speaker B:There's such a big world out there and there's so much that we can learn and see.
Speaker B:Yeah, we have the best education system in the world and we have the smartest people and the best industry, etc, etc, etc, but there's lots of people out in this world that we would benefit from.
Speaker B:And as I was saying, the thing with the Peace Corps is.
Speaker B:And what John F.
Speaker B:Kennedy, he wanted the volunteers to take American culture overseas.
Speaker B:He wanted Americans to take American technology overseas, but he also wanted them to bring the foreign influence back to the United States.
Speaker B:Those are the Three reasons that they set up the Peace Corps.
Speaker B:So I think that I want people to be able to say, oh, that might be an interesting place to go visit.
Speaker B:And I want people to feel.
Speaker B:I mean, I've got pictures of my kids in there as young girls from different places was where we were.
Speaker B:I want them to feel comfortable getting on a plane and then getting off a plane in Athens, Greece.
Speaker B:Athens is.
Speaker B:Greece is one of our closest allies, a very, very friendly place.
Speaker B:Americans are terrible at foreign languages, but most places you can speak enough English to get by.
Speaker B:And certainly in Greece, you're not going to have an issue because they want your tourist dollars.
Speaker B:Thailand.
Speaker B:I've lived in Thailand after I retired.
Speaker B:I mean, there's so much of a world out there.
Speaker B:You know, we think we have good scuba diving down here in Florida.
Speaker B:It's nothing compared to Thailand.
Speaker B:So, you know, people really.
Speaker B:I really want people to get the spirit of travel, to get the spirit of adventure, to be willing to take a little bit of a risk.
Speaker B:It's very low risk.
Speaker B:There's risk.
Speaker B:There's risk in everything we do.
Speaker B:There's a risk of me driving from Tampa down to Miami.
Speaker B:I can assure you there's a risk of that.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Probably more risk than there is in traveling back overseas in most of the places I visited.
Speaker B:So I want people to take away that there are lots of fun places.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're different.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The bathrooms are not quite the same in some places of the world, but nonetheless, there are still some fascinating places.
Speaker B:And if we can get over those very minor inconveniences, we can see some.
Speaker A:Amazing things as people think about traveling overseas.
Speaker A:What are some key things that you've learned about cross cultural interactions that would help people to feel more comfortable traveling overseas?
Speaker B:That was broken up a lot.
Speaker B:Can you ask me that again?
Speaker A:What are some key lessons you've learned about cross cultural interactions that would help people traveling overseas?
Speaker B:So the most important cross cultural challenge is the fact that everything is different.
Speaker B:Everyone is different.
Speaker B:That's all there is to it.
Speaker B:However, the secret to overcoming those challenges is simply to be accepting up to a point.
Speaker B:It's okay to say, no, I don't.
Speaker B:I don't really want to eat that.
Speaker B:They eat some interesting foods overseas in different parts of the world, and it's okay to say, yeah, I got a problem with that, and not eat it, or you taste it and you don't like it.
Speaker B:I mean, goodness gracious, you can go to Scotland and eat.
Speaker B:I forget what it's called.
Speaker B:The stuffed sheep stomach kind of sausage that they do there.
Speaker B:It actually tastes pretty good.
Speaker B:I've eaten.
Speaker B:I've eaten a couple different variations of that around the world.
Speaker B:But it's okay not to.
Speaker B:It's okay.
Speaker B:Or it's okay to taste and say that.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I don't really like that.
Speaker B:It's okay to have an opinion and to share it.
Speaker B:You can't be rude about it.
Speaker B:But then if I came to your house and I was rude about something that your wife served me for dinner, what would you do?
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker B:Okay, you can't do that.
Speaker B:Now, if my now ex wife came to have dinner with you and you served fish, she'd probably go, I'm sorry, I'm allergic to fish.
Speaker B:Fish.
Speaker B:So I'm not going to eat that.
Speaker B:Is that going to offend anybody?
Speaker B:Chances are you'd be scrambling to find something else to feed her, but she would.
Speaker B:You know, she's still going to tell you that because she goes into anaphylactic shock if she eats seafood.
Speaker B:So those are just ways we engage with people.
Speaker B:I find that most people around the world, as long as they're not, don't have an ulterior motive and that you always have to be careful of, even here in this country.
Speaker B:But if you deal with them openly and honestly, then they're going to deal with you openly and honestly.
Speaker B:Whether it's a shopkeeper in Jerusalem, he wants to sell you something.
Speaker B:That's his motivation.
Speaker B:Okay, I want to buy something.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:But I don't want to pay your price.
Speaker B:Okay, well, what about this?
Speaker B:You know, you get into the moment and you enjoy it.
Speaker B:If you're going to stay so tightly wounded that you can't let go of some of your prejudices, your biases, and we all have them, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker B:They're just the nature of the way we were raised.
Speaker B:We're both Lutheran, so we both have Lutheran biases.
Speaker B:My pastor says that Catholics make the best Lutheran.
Speaker B:Now think about that.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:So, okay, so we all have our own biases.
Speaker B:And that, like I said, that's okay.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean we are.
Speaker B:We reject other people or we're critical of them for their beliefs.
Speaker B:We accept them as well.
Speaker B:We allow them to have their beliefs.
Speaker B:And that, I think, is one of the greatest strengths of our country is that people are allowed to have pretty much whatever belief they want as long as they don't make me follow their belief.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:I love to ask my guests this question.
Speaker A:What do you want Your legacy to be.
Speaker B:Oh, that's an easy one.
Speaker B:My daughters.
Speaker B:I have two daughters, and they're both fascinating, they're both wonderful.
Speaker B:I love them to death.
Speaker B:I'm much closer to one because she's physically in the state of Florida.
Speaker B:The other one's in Oregon.
Speaker B:So I'm not as close to her.
Speaker B:Nonetheless, that's what my legacy should be.
Speaker B:Just like, you know, I.
Speaker B:I walked out the.
Speaker B:The door this morning when I was in Tunisia.
Speaker B:I lived in an apartment in Tunis.
Speaker B:To knee.
Speaker B:That's North Africa.
Speaker B:So I lived in Tunis.
Speaker B:And we had a phone.
Speaker B: And this was: Speaker B:87, maybe.
Speaker B: No, excuse me,: Speaker B:And it rang one night and it was my dad calling me from Ohio.
Speaker B:I said, hi, dad.
Speaker B:He goes, jeff, I was doing my taxes and I was looking out the window and I saw the full moon.
Speaker B:And it dawned on me that we see the same moon.
Speaker B:So we're actually close.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So what do you suppose I think of every time I walk outside and see the full moon?
Speaker B:It's my dad who passed away, I think, 35 years ago, a long time ago.
Speaker B:Every time I see a full moon, what do I think of?
Speaker B:I think of my dad.
Speaker B:He's watching over me.
Speaker B:So I hope.
Speaker B:I hope that my kids, my two daughters, will find some memory of our life together that triggers them thinking of me and our life together as they get older.
Speaker B:Just like I said, the full moon, it's my dad.
Speaker B:I take a picture of it and send it to my sister because I've shared that story with her.
Speaker B:And it's just.
Speaker B:It's just one of those memorable moments that you have.
Speaker B:So I want.
Speaker B:I want my legacy to be my two daughters.
Speaker B:I want them to be successful.
Speaker B:And they are.
Speaker B:You know, they have.
Speaker B:They each have.
Speaker B:One has two children.
Speaker B:One has one child.
Speaker B:One's still married, one's divorced.
Speaker B:You know, okay, that life goes on.
Speaker B:But I want my relationship with them to be my legacy.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's truly nothing more important in the.
Speaker A:World to me than that that's so special.
Speaker A:Where can people find your book and connect with you on social media?
Speaker B:I am on LinkedIn.
Speaker B:It's Jeffrey Sano.
Speaker B:On my.
Speaker B:My web page is my full name with my middle initial, which is Scott.
Speaker B:So It's Jeffrey S.
Speaker B:Sano dot com.
Speaker B:No periods, just Jeffriess Sano dot com.
Speaker B:That's my website.
Speaker B:They can connect with me on LinkedIn.
Speaker B:As I said, at Jeffrey Sano.
Speaker B:They can buy my book on Amazon.
Speaker B:As I said, it's human for humanity.
Speaker B:And I, I've gotten some good feedback on it.
Speaker B:People like it, it's pretty readable and I, I enjoyed writing it.
Speaker B:Like I said, I really wanted to try and bring to people the sense of adventure.
Speaker B:We don't live in a perfect world.
Speaker B:There's a couple countries in there that I talk about that I probably wouldn't send my daughters to visit, but most of the countries I would send them to visit because they'll have a good time.
Speaker B:And I just want people to enjoy the adventures of the world that we live in to the best of their ability.
Speaker B:Not everybody can travel.
Speaker B:You know, I, I was blessed to be able to travel at taxpayer expense most of the time.
Speaker B:So there are other ways that they can travel.
Speaker B:My daughter has taken my granddaughter, her daughter to Greece and I think they've gone on a cruise.
Speaker B:So you can travel.
Speaker B:You just have to prioritize because we have a great big world out there and once you make those connections overseas, you never lose them.
Speaker B:And I want people to understand the world that we live in because it's a fascinating world.
Speaker B:Some bad, Most good.
Speaker A:Well, Jeff, thanks so much for sharing your story and just reminding us to be adventurous and to go and discover what God has created out there, there for us.
Speaker B:Yes, sir.
