The Intersection of Food and Faith: With Andrew Camp
This podcast episode with Andrew Camp explores the deep connection between food, faith, and community. Andrew, who has experience as both a pastor and a chef, shares transformative lessons from high-pressure kitchen environments. He emphasizes the importance of pausing to regain composure during chaotic moments, a practice that can lead to clarity and effective action. The discussion highlights how sharing meals goes beyond mere sustenance, acting as a catalyst for healing and reconciliation within communities. Andrew also reflects on the significant role of mentorship in his life and the creation of his podcast, 'The Biggest Table,' which aims to foster meaningful conversations around food, faith, and inclusivity. Key takeaways include the power of mindfulness in chaos, the healing nature of shared meals, the impact of mentorship, and the profound narratives at the intersection of food and faith.
Transcript
Well, Andrew, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:How are you doing today?
Speaker B:I'm great.
Speaker B:Thanks for having me, Keith.
Speaker B:I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Speaker A:You say that now.
Speaker A:We haven't got into the conversation.
Speaker B:True.
Speaker B:But hey, what could go wrong?
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker A:It's very true.
Speaker A:So I'm going to ask you my favorite question.
Speaker A:What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Speaker B:Huh?
Speaker B:The best piece of advice I've ever received.
Speaker B:I don't know if it's advice, but I used to be a professional chef and I think some of my lessons from there have been the most transformative, even though I've worked in churches and worked in Christian organizations.
Speaker B:But there was one time I was cooking in Park City, Utah, big ski resort area.
Speaker B:Sundance Film Festival happens there.
Speaker B:But I was lead line cook, so I was running the line and we were.
Speaker B:It was a busy winter day and we were just slammed.
Speaker B:And like, you know, it's, you know, you've seen probably videos of it where, like the ticket, you know, or just across the board and nobody knows what's going on.
Speaker B:And we had like a little pass, you know, that was probably like a foot high where we would put the plates.
Speaker B:You know, there's warmers.
Speaker B:And the executive chef at the time, Carter, he's like, andrew, look at me, look at me.
Speaker B:And I'm like, you know, I don't have time, like, you know, and he's like, no, stop what you're doing.
Speaker B:Look at me, like.
Speaker B:And you know, he's like, you know, doing the eye contact thing, and he's like, take a deep breath.
Speaker B:You got this, like.
Speaker B:And that settled me.
Speaker B:Like, you know, it helped me refocus.
Speaker B:It allowed me just to be like, okay, like, I got this, like.
Speaker B:And then from there I was able to gather my thoughts, get the team organized.
Speaker B:And from there we were able to knock, knock it out, you know, and so I think it was the lesson of like, okay, when.
Speaker B:When chaos is swirling, you know, there, and you don't feel like you can take a breath, stopping and collecting yourself is probably actually the best thing you can do just to slow yourself down.
Speaker B:Re center regather and then move forward.
Speaker A:You just recalled my post college career for a little bit.
Speaker A:I was a line cook in a Mexican restaurant and I was actually hired to actually work on the dishes.
Speaker A:And they're like, oh, you look too smart to be on the dishes, so we'll put you on the line.
Speaker A:And I remember we used to get like $10,000 hours.
Speaker A:So those lines of Tickets you're talking about.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we had.
Speaker A:Because it was a Mexican restaurant, but it was kind of a high scale.
Speaker A:We had a grill part.
Speaker A:There was the, you know, the Mexican.
Speaker A:Typical Mexican dish parts.
Speaker A:We have sometimes steak and enchiladas and all that.
Speaker A:And we were running plates through.
Speaker A:And I remember just the total chaos of that and trying to get people who were, you know, new to this and me being new to it, trying to figure out what an F18, F8 was and, you know, F13s and.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that.
Speaker A:That whole total chaos.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:Thanks for that flashback.
Speaker A:I'm not real sure I can sleep tonight.
Speaker A:Thanks for that.
Speaker B:Hey, you're welcome.
Speaker B:I still sometimes, if I'm at a restaurant and I hear that ticket machine, the ticket clicker, I still have some post traumatic stress syndrome.
Speaker B:It's sort of just like, you know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:It's just like you get a twitch.
Speaker A:It's like nervous tick.
Speaker A:You can't give it up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm curious, Andrew.
Speaker A:Who are some people, as you think about your life, who served as a mentor for you or maybe an inspiration on your journey?
Speaker B:Yeah, there's people that have stood out.
Speaker B:You know, the list is probably too long, but the ones that stand out.
Speaker B:I had a high school youth group leader in church, Ryan Takanaga.
Speaker B:He was.
Speaker B:It was a big church, you know, our youth group was probably 400 to 500 big.
Speaker B:And so we were divided into smaller groups, you know, and Ryan was our small group leader, and he was doing his master's in philosophy at Talbot Seminary.
Speaker B:This was in.
Speaker B:Or.
Speaker B:We were in Orange County, California.
Speaker B:And my small group were all the kids who had grown up in the church.
Speaker B:We were the elders kids, the pastor's kids, the former missionary kids, like, you know, the goody goodies.
Speaker B:You know, the kids who, you know, we got told a couple of times from the leaders, like, hey, everybody's looking to you.
Speaker B:You need to behave.
Speaker B:And you're like, well, thanks.
Speaker B:That's gonna help a lot as a high school, like, exactly.
Speaker B:Good old Christian guilt.
Speaker B:But what Ryan did for us is, you know, we just got tired of the normal high school lessons.
Speaker B:And one summer, he took us through JP Moreland, Scaling the Secular City Apologetics book.
Speaker B:And it was one of those first times where I felt like I could.
Speaker B:I engaged my mind with the Christian faith in ways that I hadn't.
Speaker B:And so Ryan played an instrumental part.
Speaker B:After college, I lived in China for three years, working as a youth pastor for missionary kids.
Speaker B:And while they're.
Speaker B:Tom Kimberly served as A mentor and just really as a pastoral mentor.
Speaker B:And just what does it mean to be a pastor?
Speaker B:In profound ways.
Speaker B:You know, that whole host of missionary community, what was cool there is I got to work with like 15 different nationalities and if not more denominations, so everything from Assemblies of God to Dutch Reformed, you know, and you got to see what the beauty of the Christian faith can be.
Speaker B:You know, growing up white evangelical, you know, clapping was not, you know, looked high upon in my church, you know.
Speaker B:And so like to learn from these assemblies of God men and women who, who love Jesus and want this experience of the spirit, you know.
Speaker B:But then when I started cooking, Chef Gary Menez, who's in Los Angeles, he was the first one to hire me when I was in culinary school and has still, still stay in touch.
Speaker B:But he's always Chef Gary to me.
Speaker B:We'll never be like, you know, will never be just Gary.
Speaker B:He's always Chef Gary.
Speaker B:Just like some of my Sunday school teachers are still Mr.
Speaker B:Durbin.
Speaker B:Never Jim.
Speaker B:Even though we're.
Speaker B:I'm 44 now, like, you know, but you know, Chef Gary and then, you know, Carter, who was the executive chef in Park City has really, you know, I think those are the people that, that stand out to me as I think about people who have influenced me and then authors galore.
Speaker B:You know, I'm a reader.
Speaker B:I love to read.
Speaker B:So Eugene Peterson.
Speaker B:I'll throw in Eugene Peterson just because a man who, who loved Jesus, served faithfully but was able to blend the head and the heart in ways that I don't think many can.
Speaker B:And so that's.
Speaker B:Eugene has always been my aspiration, aspirational model, you know, okay, if I can be somebody, like, how can I be more like Eugene?
Speaker B:And yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker A:Didn't he.
Speaker A:He had something to do with the Message Bible, didn't he?
Speaker B:Yeah, he translated the message.
Speaker B:You know, his PhD is in ancient languages, but like some of his work on pastoral ministry, you know.
Speaker B:And then he wrote this five volume work at the.
Speaker B:Towards the end of his life on spiritual theology that he said this is formed from 30 years of floating canoeing down the river with men and then teaching in academia, you know.
Speaker B:And it's just.
Speaker B:Yeah, he just had this way about him that.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just beautiful to me.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:So what inspired you to start the biggest table podcast?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So yeah, you're wondering.
Speaker B:Okay, he's.
Speaker B:I'm a pastor, I'm a chef.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But this.
Speaker B:Yeah, like people.
Speaker B:How does this work, Andrew?
Speaker B:Like this isn't you know, you're dealing with unruly people in both instances, really broken people.
Speaker A:Except one.
Speaker A:One.
Speaker A:One group tips, the other one does it.
Speaker B:Yeah, one group tips.
Speaker B:One group owns their dysfunction.
Speaker B:The other group tries to hide it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I'll let you decide which is which.
Speaker B:And if you think it's the church, people who are open about their flaunts, are open about their faults, you're wrong.
Speaker B:Anyway, sorry.
Speaker B:Church hurt.
Speaker B:You know, let's.
Speaker B:Ok.
Speaker B:It actually.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B: ally started in China back in: Speaker B:Probably.
Speaker B:For me, it was actually reading Eugene Peterson.
Speaker B:When I was in China, I was noticing we as the missionary community and just in general, there was a lot of time we spent at the table.
Speaker B:And I began to just wonder, okay, why.
Speaker B:Why do we linger at the table?
Speaker B:And in.
Speaker B:In China, like, we all lived in apartments, small, ish apartments, you know, and so the dining room table is literally five feet from my couch.
Speaker B:And yet after dinner, we're just still lingering in very uncomfortable chairs, happy and content, you know, and it's not because we ate too much.
Speaker B:You know, we're just.
Speaker B:We're there.
Speaker B:And so it was sort of like, okay, why.
Speaker B:Why do we linger at the table?
Speaker B:What is it about the table?
Speaker B:What is it about food that causes us to just stay?
Speaker B:And I'm, you know, being an avid Eugene Peterson reader, I.
Speaker B:I think my parents had sent me one of his new books, Living the Resurrection, small book.
Speaker B:But he talks, he has this one sentence where, you know, that he says, the gospel writers are most fond of telling stories about Jesus around the table.
Speaker B:And it was one of those moments that just all this sudden, you know, it's.
Speaker B:It's one of those holy moly moments, you know, like what?
Speaker B:Oh, wait, okay, okay.
Speaker B:Something's radical here.
Speaker B:And that just has sent me on this journey of, okay, what is food?
Speaker B:What does it mean to eat?
Speaker B:How do we, you know, prepare food?
Speaker B:Well, what does it mean to be hospitable?
Speaker B:And so since then, it's just been this journey, you know, that led me back to seminary, led me into culinary school while going to seminary and working.
Speaker B:Don't recommend that.
Speaker B:But it was this way of me exploring food and spirituality and this interconnectedness, you know, and life has taken us various ways, but there was just never a moment where I felt like I could enter into this project fully.
Speaker B:Like, I've tried.
Speaker B:I've done some blogging, tried to write some, done some book reviews, but back in July of 23, lost my job here in Flagstaff as a pastor.
Speaker B:And in the midst of the grief, in the midst of the pain of.
Speaker B:Of that and, you know, and me and my family trying to figure out what's next.
Speaker B:It was sort of like, well, I have the time now to enter into this project.
Speaker B:I've always wanted to do it.
Speaker B:Why not start?
Speaker B:And I thought, okay, I love to read.
Speaker B:I love to interact with guests and authors.
Speaker B:Like, why not start a podcast as an easy way just to have some fun conversations and see who might be interested.
Speaker B:And so it just sort of started from there.
Speaker B:And, you know, I.
Speaker B:I've never been shy about reaching out to authors I love and their books, you know, and because I said, you know, figured, well, the worst they'll do is just not respond, like, you know, but.
Speaker B:And so I'm like, the answer is always no until I ask.
Speaker B:And so I just started reaching out to authors and people I like and books I've read from on the intersection of food and faith and are just, you know, hospitality.
Speaker B:And all of a sudden, people started saying, yes, and you're like, wait, what?
Speaker B:I get to have a conversation with you?
Speaker B:Like, and so, yeah, it just has turned in this way for me to expand my horizons, you know, refine what I think and believe, but also, hopefully, help others to think through what.
Speaker B:What is the table?
Speaker B:What does it mean to eat?
Speaker B:What are, you know, how does racism and injustice play into our food ways?
Speaker B:How does, you know, the hurt, the pain, the brokenness wreak havoc on food systems?
Speaker B:But then also, what.
Speaker B:How can healing be brought about through the table?
Speaker B:And so, yeah, it's just been.
Speaker B:It's been fun, you know, doing a podcast.
Speaker B:People think it's probably easy.
Speaker B:You know, I think we all have these grand illusions that will be the next, like Travis Kelsey or the Kelsey Brothers and be making millions, you know, but it's slow progress.
Speaker B:But it's also, you know, if.
Speaker B:If I just think about it, of the conversations I get to have and how it's helping me think through, what does it mean to be faithful in this age, Then.
Speaker B:Then it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's a lot of fun.
Speaker A:Yeah, we all think we're gonna be the Joe Rogan of the Christian faith podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Nope.
Speaker A:Haven'T reached a million yet, so I still have a long way to go.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, when you talk about the.
Speaker A:The idea of food and faith, I.
Speaker A:I'm always.
Speaker A:I remember one Sunday, one time when I was filling in it at the chapel during Easter, and I was trying to figure out, you know, what Easter text could I Preach on, because you always have the ones that you always preach on.
Speaker A:But I wanted something different.
Speaker A:So the Old Testament lesson was from Isaiah, where God talks about this banquet that he lays before us, describing heaven.
Speaker A:But as I dug deeper into that, that analogy really was more than that, because the way a conquering king would celebrate victory was he'd have a banquet.
Speaker A:If you really wanted to kind of rub it in your opponent's face, you'd have the banquet in front of your opponent, the defeated enemy.
Speaker A:So there's this picture in Isaiah of God laying out this enormous banquet with the finest meats, the greatest wines, in front of Satan.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's saying to Satan, you've been defeated.
Speaker A:And here's the banquet, you know, celebrating your defeat.
Speaker A:And you're welcome to come and partake of the banquet.
Speaker A:And so I love when you talk about this idea of tying and connecting food and faith.
Speaker A:So how do you see in the work that you're doing now connecting that, the beauty of food, the table and faith all together to kind of communicate a message to people who may not make that connection?
Speaker B:Yeah, I always, like, you know, like you said, Isaiah paints this beautiful picture.
Speaker B:But when you think about the story of scripture, you know, whenever God wants to communicate redemption, there's always food involved.
Speaker B:Like, you know, let's, you know, we.
Speaker B:We start in the garden, you know, and he plants us in this beautiful, luscious, abundant garden, and we make a mess of it, you know, and the story, however we interpret it, it.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's eating.
Speaker B:But then from that point on, you know, you think the Passover, you know, it's food, it's a meal.
Speaker B:You know, the prophets, the Old Testament prophets communicated a lot of this Messianic banquet, you know, and that the finest wines and the best meats would be filled.
Speaker B:Or I think right before that Isaiah vision of the Messianic banquet.
Speaker B:Like, there's this vision, and I think it's in Isaiah 24, if I remember correctly, because.
Speaker B:But like, where.
Speaker B:Like the streets.
Speaker B:The streets are desolate.
Speaker B:There's no scene in.
Speaker B:There's, you know, the wine has dried up.
Speaker B:People are just, you know, the sat.
Speaker B:You know, you just think of desolation, and food is tied in with that.
Speaker B:And then, you know, Jesus comes and, you know, there's a lot that Jesus does around the table.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But, you know, the communion is.
Speaker B:Is a table with eating, you know, and.
Speaker B:And then finally we get to revelation and, you know, the great mess, you know, great marriage, supper of the Lamb, or Peter in Acts 10, you know, he's told to eat unclean animals, to be, as a, as a reminder of.
Speaker B:No, God's kingdom is for everyone.
Speaker B:Like, you know, we're, we're to welcome all.
Speaker B:And so the story of scripture is littered, you know, from beginning to end with this idea of food and this idea of communion and hospitality.
Speaker B:And so I think if we can understand that, you know, and, and understand the beauty of what the table can be, where we, where we make a space for others and ourselves to be seen, to, to live, you know, it just naturally happens, you know, like when people enter a house, we all gravitate towards the kitchen at first, you know?
Speaker B:You know, and we like to eat together.
Speaker B:We like to be around a table.
Speaker B:And so I think it's, it's this idea that there is something that happens at a table that, that is mysterious, but also that we know happens because Jesus told us to eat in remembrance of him.
Speaker B:And so I, I, I can never fully explain it, because I think there, I want to leave room for mystery at a point.
Speaker B:But when we see the table as more than just sustenance, you know, physical sustenance, but emotional, relational, spiritual, like sustenance, and we see that we can be there, it's.
Speaker B:It's beautiful, you know, and then when you think about us as embodied creatures, you know, eating is something we have to do with all of our senses.
Speaker B:Like, it's one of the few acts that I think engages every sense we have, from touching to smelling to hearing to tasting, like it's all there, you know, and, and so we are embodied creatures.
Speaker B:And so how does eating help us remain embodied and be present to who we are, you know, in both good and bad ways.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I think that's, there's just a lot wrapped up into it.
Speaker B:And, and I think taking the time to just help people see that, yes, we have to eat to survive, but there are moments where we can find a beautiful relational component and a beautiful spiritual component as we eat.
Speaker A:No, you're right.
Speaker A:One of the, some of the greatest memories of my growing up as a young person in our church was every November, we'd have this Harvest Home festival where we would have this beautiful banquet laid out, and we'd invite the community.
Speaker A:And it was this opportunity to have this deeper connection of food, fellowship, and faith and to see that, I mean, some of those are just the best moments.
Speaker A:We'd have block parties in Detroit and in Milwaukee, where we block off the block.
Speaker A:We'd have, you know, you smell the hot dogs and the Hamburgers, grilling, and people would come.
Speaker A:I remember we had a chili cook off in our community in St.
Speaker A:Louis, and we'd invite the community and just that idea of it broke down barriers and created a sense of comfort and peace and serenity as you kind of came together around a shared meal and just broke bread together.
Speaker A:It just broke down so many walls.
Speaker A:Like you talked about earlier.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No, and even I was talking to a guest recently, Dr.
Speaker B:Christopher Carter, who's written on black food ways and injustice, but he talks about, you know, the stories our food tells.
Speaker B:And, you know, he taught some classes, and he'd always have his students recall to mind a food memory, you know, a dish, you know, and.
Speaker B:And the story that's wrapped up in that, you know, because I think if you can hearken back and think through, like, you know, you can think of a dish that, you know, and it may have been a terrible dish, right.
Speaker B:But, like, there's probably something.
Speaker B:Some laughter involved, but, you know, like, that you can probably still smell and feel like there's a visceral.
Speaker B:There's a embodied response to that memory that, like, if we take the time to think back, you know, of.
Speaker B:Okay, that, you know, those block parties, you can probably still smell those hot dogs and those hamburgers, you know, and think of the kids, you know, you get a picture, you know, and so I think these food memories carry in our bodies something that helps us stay connected to our history.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:As you think about your podcast, are there some impactful stories or guests from the biggest table podcast that kind of stick out in your mind without.
Speaker A:Yeah, without hurting the.
Speaker A:Remember the people who showed up on your podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:And that's what's like, I've always been.
Speaker B:Am at the guests I've been able to have conversations with, but I think.
Speaker B:I think a lot of it.
Speaker B:What has helped me think through.
Speaker B:Let me start again.
Speaker B:A lot of my table is filled with joyous memories.
Speaker B:Like, the table for me is a place of joy, celebration, stability.
Speaker B:So I have a lot of good memories wrapped up in the table as I've entered into this podcast.
Speaker B:And yeah, even since I've entered into this podcast, talking, being.
Speaker B:Being able to talk with some African Americans like Derek Weston, Michael Twitty, Christopher Carter, you know, they.
Speaker B:They are sharing memories of brokenness, of.
Speaker B:Of the hurt involved, you know, the.
Speaker B:From, you know, African American slave food, you know, and.
Speaker B:And the history that's tied up in that, you know, and that sometimes the food carries with it trauma stories, you know, and telling these stories of.
Speaker B:Of trauma and hurt that are needed so that we can change the story and change the narrative and own our history and be honest.
Speaker B:And so I think learning and seeing the brokenness in our food ways has been hugely important to me this past year, to see that how much injustice there still is, from food deserts to, you know, the need for vegetables in communities that don't have access to it.
Speaker B:So I think that's been powerful for me and shaped me.
Speaker B:I also love talking to Gisela.
Speaker B:Excuse me, Gisela Kreglinger, who's written on the spirituality of wine, you know, and she wants to sort of demystify wine.
Speaker B:You know, my.
Speaker B:The job that pays the bills right now is I'm a wine rep for a small distribution company, so I sell wine and I'm in the language a lot, you know, and around people who have advanced psalm degrees.
Speaker B:But what she wants us to do is when we sip wine, to engage with what it's doing in our bodies, you know, what memories does it bring up that, you know, we don't need the experts to tell us what we're smelling and tasting, that we.
Speaker B:We can do it, you know, and she uses the phrase the priesthood of all drinkers, you know, playing on the scripture priesthood of all believers.
Speaker B:But it's really cool because then, you know, because we.
Speaker B:We approach something like wine or we approach something like high food, and we think, oh, wait, I'm not.
Speaker B:I don't have the refined palate.
Speaker B:I can't do this.
Speaker B:But her.
Speaker B:Her idea is that, you know, as you drink this, it's going to bring back memories.
Speaker B:There's something that's going to smell.
Speaker B:The smell, the.
Speaker B:The flavor there's going to be.
Speaker B:Your body's going to react to it in certain ways.
Speaker B:And so how can we use that to then engage with.
Speaker B:With Jesus and pray, you know, and she says every sip is a prayer, you know, And I think it's.
Speaker B:It's that idea of, again, part of food asks us to be attentive to the present moment, you know, whether it's a sip or a bite, you know, that lasts 10 seconds or less.
Speaker B:Like, that flavor is here and then it's gone.
Speaker B:And so how do we be attentive in those split seconds, you know, and how can that help us then be attentive to Jesus in those moments where we may not always be expecting it?
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:So you've seemed to have had some really interesting guests.
Speaker A:As a podcaster, I'm always curious, how do you Pick your guests for your podcast.
Speaker B:How do I pick?
Speaker B:I think it's.
Speaker B:For me, it's always just been a book that grabs my attention.
Speaker B:A topic like this fall, there was a new book by pastor in Phoenix, Caleb Campbell, on how to love your Christian nationalist neighbor.
Speaker B:You know, it's called Disarming Leviathan.
Speaker B:Great book by InterVarsity.
Speaker B:And so it was like, oh, this feels very apropos.
Speaker B:Like, you know, and he.
Speaker B:He brings in hospitality and how do we sit at a table with people who.
Speaker B:Who we strongly disagree with?
Speaker B:So, you know, it's thinking about that or who do I want to learn from?
Speaker B:Who have I enjoyed engaging with that I think my guests could have, you know, enjoy, but then also always bringing in that table aspect.
Speaker B:So even if they're not writing about food explicitly, like, how does the table then factor into their book or their ideas?
Speaker B:And how can the table be a tool of.
Speaker B:Of reconciliation or a tool of.
Speaker B:Of justice or, you know, so, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker B:It's people who strike my fancy.
Speaker B:You know, that's really how it comes down to.
Speaker A:You know, I love that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I do a lot of that myself.
Speaker A:Like in February on my podcast, I've got several guests who are approaching.
Speaker A:I don't like doing traditional black history podcasts because that's boring.
Speaker A:But I thought what I would do is talk about topics that are involving race and racial reconciliation, our country.
Speaker A:So I have guests on who are talking about it's never been fair, talking about diversity from a Christian perspective and working in Washington.
Speaker A:So there's a lot of that kind of, let's talk about the issues that we don't ever get to because we let words or language separate us.
Speaker A:So let's not focus on what DEI is, but let's focus on how do we become an inclusive community.
Speaker A:So I like the fact that we kind of have some of the same crossover type topics.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Around this.
Speaker A:How do we begin to create an inclusive community?
Speaker A:And even that word inclusive gets kind of taken back to all kind of other things, but just a culture where you can welcome people to the table to share a common meal or a common thought or to bring about reconciliation.
Speaker A:Because in the end, our mission is to go back to what the Bible says, you know, to be about sharing, that it would be Christ ambassadors and ambassadors of reconciliation.
Speaker A:How do we do that as a church if we don't want to have the conversations about the hurt that's out there?
Speaker A:You mentioned, you know, being in the church, there's a lot of hurt that sometimes the church puts on and puts out there.
Speaker A:We don't ever want to get back to how do we heal even those past things.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Man, if I could solve that question, I could probably be a church consultant.
Speaker A:And you could do ynn.
Speaker A:Church consultant.
Speaker B:I know, right?
Speaker B:Like, because it's not easy.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, yes, it was hurtful to be laid off from a church, but in some ways it has given me the space and the freedom to then step back from the church for the first time in a really long time and be like, okay, what is actually going on?
Speaker B:And, like, what corrective actions might need to take place?
Speaker B:And then you start realizing, you know, because I grew up in the white evangelical church, like that white evangelical machine is.
Speaker B:It's a monster.
Speaker B:It's a behemoth bahomuth.
Speaker B:Or it's just a monster.
Speaker B:Let's just call it that, you know.
Speaker A:Because, like, whatever the word is, right.
Speaker B:Whatever the word is, I have a great word in mind, Keith.
Speaker B:And then my tongue doesn't want to say it.
Speaker B:So, you know, it doesn't get any.
Speaker A:Easier the older you get.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm sure you never run into that as a podcast host.
Speaker B:Never.
Speaker B:We never stumble over our words.
Speaker A:We edit that part out.
Speaker A:So we look so smooth.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:You know, because so much of our church is just about past passivity.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We go, we sit, maybe we engage in worship.
Speaker B:But I still.
Speaker B:I'm not even sure, like, you know, how.
Speaker B:You know, sometimes I wonder about worship, too.
Speaker B:But, like, you know, we.
Speaker B:We then sit and receive and hear a sermon, you know, and so, like, when that is our model of what the Christian life looks like, I.
Speaker B:We just don't even think through what it means to then sit, you know, because then communion's an add on.
Speaker B:Or, you know, when I was growing up, we celebrated communion maybe once a month in an evening service, and once a quarter like it.
Speaker B:Like, communion's never factored into the centrality of the white evangelical church.
Speaker B:I think it's maybe changing a little, but, you know, or if it's done, it's done with stale crackers and really bad grape juice.
Speaker B:Like, that's not what I want.
Speaker B:That's not Jesus's kingdom to me.
Speaker B:Like, come on.
Speaker B:Like, can we.
Speaker B:I've always thought, like, I long for the day when I walk up to church and smell fresh baked bread.
Speaker B:Like, you know, that's going to be used for communion.
Speaker B:Like, and part of that is, you know, my mom baked fresh bread all growing up.
Speaker B:And so there were days I'd Come home from school and, you know, the house is just a wash with fresh baked bread, you know, and we would bake her for a slice of warm bread because there's nothing better in my opinion, you know.
Speaker B:And so I think how do we build a more inclusive table is part of me thinks, like, there's stuff that just needs to die, and I don't know how that's going to happen or when that's going to happen.
Speaker B:But as we sort of decentralize church and make it more where we are talking, where we value the home more than a building and value our neighbors more than getting them to a building, but I think it's.
Speaker B:It's just doing it in our own homes.
Speaker B:And so maybe we just start.
Speaker B:And maybe I just start with my family and we just make sure we're eating together, you know, and then.
Speaker B:And then realizing that as we go, you know, as guests into the world, like, there's a phrase I heard from.
Speaker B:I was at theology beer camp this year and went to a seminar and they were talking about Jesus as a U contaminant.
Speaker B:Like, eu like being a good contaminant and that, like, do we believe that Jesus's presence in my life is for the good of everybody else around me and that that power can transform the world, that I don't need to be scared of one bad apple ruining the bunch, but rather Jesus's presence is like, he is a good apple and a bunch of spoiled apples can transform the bad apples, you know, whereas we always want to re, you know, recede into the background or shelter in place or, you know, and I think it's becoming even more so today.
Speaker B:But, like, do we still believe that Jesus can be a good contaminant for the world?
Speaker B:You know, and that takes a lot of work, right?
Speaker B:Because we still need boundaries.
Speaker B:There are still people out there who are spewing hatred in the name of Jesus, you know, and so I'm not saying, you know, invite those people into your home tomorrow, you know, like, don't hurt yourself.
Speaker B:Don't hurt your family, like, but can you do the internal work too, of being present and rooted in Christ's love to such the degree that you can begin to have touchy conversations and not get triggered.
Speaker B:But, you know, be a loving presence to people who went, you know, their world breaks down, they'll look to you and be like, hey, you know, Keith, Andrew was a good presence.
Speaker B:He never shamed me, he never ridiculed me.
Speaker B:Maybe I can ask him something about Jesus.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that's hard because the conversations today are difficult to have.
Speaker A:We're not used to having them.
Speaker A:And so we retreat from conversation.
Speaker A:We retreat from fellowship.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's.
Speaker A:How do we.
Speaker A:How do we get back to that?
Speaker A:Let's sit down.
Speaker A:Let's break bread.
Speaker A:Let's talk.
Speaker A:I just miss the conversation.
Speaker A:A lot of times on my podcast, I have people who I don't necessarily agree with, but I enjoy the conversation because you can have a respectful conversation with people and you've learned some things.
Speaker A:I haven't necessarily changed my opinion, but I'm like, you know, there's a wider perspective here than if I just have this narrow view of this is the way the world is and ignore the other side.
Speaker A:And so I left my cell phone.
Speaker A:My phone has news from different sides of the spectrum.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which totally confusing my Apple phone.
Speaker A:It's like, I don't know what to send you.
Speaker A:You know, you got far right stuff.
Speaker A:You got far left stuff.
Speaker A:You got moderate stuff.
Speaker A:So my phone just goes, here, just take this, Take this.
Speaker A:Yeah, but I want to get the story from multiple perspectives.
Speaker A:And I've had guests on my podcast, we talked about, like, for example, what's happening in Israel.
Speaker A:I've had Muslims on.
Speaker A:Tell me about the perspective of that.
Speaker A:I've had people who were Jewish on.
Speaker A:I'm like, I want to know the real story.
Speaker A:It's not what other people are telling me.
Speaker A:There's so much more here.
Speaker A:There's a history here that we often don't get.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:I appreciate having the.
Speaker A:The breaking of the bread table conversation where we can go deeper.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I think.
Speaker B:I love what you just said about, you know, you're having the diversity of.
Speaker B:Of people, because when you attach a human face to a story, like, it's harder to hate, it seems, you know, where.
Speaker B:Oh, wait, no.
Speaker B:People are affected by this.
Speaker B:Like, there's a real story.
Speaker B:There's a real human.
Speaker B:You know, even for people who we would really, really strongly disagree with, like, oh, wait, there's.
Speaker B:There's a reason.
Speaker B:There's something that's led them to this path.
Speaker B:And if I can begin to understand them as a person instead of just ideas, I think there's something really profound.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:That can happen.
Speaker B:And, yeah.
Speaker B:And as you sent me questions, you mentioned, you know, the telling of stories, you know, that stories connect, you know, and that's what happened.
Speaker B:I would hope that's what happens at a table is.
Speaker B:Is the stories.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So, Andrew, this is my second favorite question to Ask my guest.
Speaker A:As you think about all the things that you're doing and the direction God has taken you, when this is all said and done, when you've made your last podcast, what do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker B:That is a really good question.
Speaker B:The thing that jumps out, you know, And I want to be faithful.
Speaker B:You know, that people say, oh, he was faithful with God, what God called him to do and what God equipped him to do, and that he loved well, that I love my family well.
Speaker B:I love my community well, and I need to do better.
Speaker B:You know, there's room for growth.
Speaker B:Maybe that's the better way to say it, that, like, I can't change capitalism.
Speaker B:I can't change the big, you know, systems, but I can impact people, you know, and so I'm thinking that through.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I'd be curious your response, too.
Speaker B:But Claire, my wife, asked me recently.
Speaker B:She's like, hey, how do you want to live differently because of all the conversations you're having?
Speaker B:Like, you're having these rich conversations.
Speaker B:And how does it move beyond an intellectual, fun conversation to actually impacting how I live?
Speaker B:Because I don't know about you, you get these conversations and they're fun ideas.
Speaker B:But how to actually then implement something can be challenging.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, I think it's that I was willing to hear the truth and then maybe change some of how I lived so that I could live more congruent with what I say on this podcast.
Speaker A:Yeah, for me, how that's changed the way I interact is I always say there's more to the story.
Speaker A:Kind of like the Paul Harvey thing.
Speaker A:It's like, there's the rest of the story.
Speaker A:This is not the entire story.
Speaker A:And for me, when I look at situations where I look at an event and go, there's another side to this.
Speaker A:And so I don't want to just accept the first narrative that I hear, the first set of stories that I hear, but I want to go deeper and find out what's behind it.
Speaker A:What caused this to happen?
Speaker A:What led to this?
Speaker A:Are there other circumstances around us that I may not be aware of?
Speaker A:So I don't just accept the first narrative.
Speaker A:So, you know, with major events in our history, in our country, I go, well, okay, there's, for example, January 6th.
Speaker A:There's a January 6th narrative.
Speaker A:There's an actual January 6th story.
Speaker A:I want to know the January 6th story, not just the narrative that people are telling me.
Speaker A:There are other.
Speaker A:Other factors involved.
Speaker A:So I don't take the initial first step as, oh, this is true.
Speaker A:But there's more to happen that day, and I.
Speaker A:I reserve judgment until I get the entire story.
Speaker B:Right now.
Speaker B:I hear that.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I think my struggle with that is, you know, I love all the information before, you know, I need to know everything before I do something.
Speaker B:And so I get paralysis by, you know, information.
Speaker B:And so how do I still make steps?
Speaker B:Like, it doesn't need to be major changes, but, like, what's the next little step I need to take to live more congruent with.
Speaker B:With what I.
Speaker B:I feel is right, you know?
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So what I do is I.
Speaker A:I tell people I reserve the right to change my mind.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:As more information becomes available, I.
Speaker A:I deserve the right to change my mind.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No, I think that's.
Speaker B:That's a humble way to do it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, that we don't know everything that we were.
Speaker B:You know, something may come up that should change my mind, and can I be open to that?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So, Andrew, where can people find your podcast?
Speaker A:The biggest table.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:Wherever you find your podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm, you know, on Spotify, Apple Podcasts.
Speaker B:I have a personal website that is still in the works, but it's out there, you know, again, it was.
Speaker B:I need to not wait for it to be perfect.
Speaker B:I just need to get something out there at times.
Speaker B:So, andrew, davidcamp.com you can find some information about me, you know, but, yeah, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you find your podcast.
Speaker B:The Biggest Table.
Speaker B:Yeah, I got some cool guests.
Speaker B:I have some black food scholars for Black History Month just to talk about soul food and what's all wrapped up in that.
Speaker B:And so super excited about February and March.
Speaker B:Have, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Really excited about what the.
Speaker B:How the podcast continues to take shape.
Speaker A:Well, Andrew, thanks so much for taking the time to be on my podcast and sharing a little bit of your heart and what God's doing through you.
Speaker B:I appreciate it, Keith.
Speaker B:Thanks for having me.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's always fun.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Blessings, my friend.
Speaker B:Thanks.
