Navigating Faith and Sexuality: A Conversation with Andy Wells
This podcast features a heartfelt conversation between Keith Haney and Andy Wells, focusing on the intersection of faith and sexuality. Andy, who has navigated his own journey as a gay Christian, shares insights from his book "Tried to Be Straight: Options for Gay Christians," which aims to provide practical solutions for those struggling with their sexual identity in the context of conservative Christian beliefs. The discussion delves into the challenges faced by LGBTQ individuals within the church, emphasizing the importance of love, grace, and understanding over judgment and exclusion. Keith and Andy explore the necessity of creating safe spaces for dialogue and the need for the church to embrace a message of mercy that transcends rigid interpretations of scripture. Their candid exchange highlights the hope that exists for those who feel marginalized, underscoring the belief that God's love is unconditional and available to all.
Join us for a deeply emotional and educational conversation with Andy Wells, who shares his journey of searching for identity at the intersection of faith and sexuality. With a Master’s in Christian Apologetics, Andy provides a unique perspective on holding onto Christian beliefs in a constantly changing world. He pays tribute to the diverse influences in his life, offering a raw look at the beauty of embracing different worldviews within relationships.
Our discussion courageously addresses the complexity of showing love to others without necessarily endorsing their actions, a sensitive topic at the heart of Christianity and homosexuality. Through Andy’s book, Tried to Be Straight: Options for Gay Christians, we explore compelling perspectives on maintaining one’s beliefs while being part of a faith community. This episode underscores the importance of approaching delicate matters with compassion, seeking understanding rather than fostering exclusion, and the pivotal role of love and kindness in our spiritual lives.
We wrap up by delving into God’s unconditional love, countering the often toxic narrative of performance-based acceptance in religious circles. Andy’s aspiration to leave a legacy centered on love, service, and spiritual growth sets a hopeful tone for our listeners. Reflect on the true essence of faith and join us for a conversation transforming how we live out our beliefs in love and grace.
Tune in to this transformative episode with Andy Wells and explore the intersection of faith and identity. Learn from Andy’s experiences and insights to navigate complex issues with compassion and understanding. Don’t miss this opportunity to deepen your faith and embrace the true essence of love and grace.
Takeaways:
- The podcast emphasizes the importance of love and grace over judgment in faith communities.
- Andy Wells shares his personal journey of reconciling faith and sexuality, providing insight for others.
- Listeners are encouraged to engage in difficult conversations about faith and sexuality with compassion.
- The discussion highlights the need for churches to better support LGBTQ individuals in their faith journeys.
- Wells argues that traditional views on sexuality and sin must be approached with understanding and mercy.
- The episode calls for a re-examination of how the church views and treats LGBTQ members.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
Hey you awesome folks.
Keith Haney:Thanks for taking this journey of discovery with your guide, Keith Haney.
Keith Haney:You're listening to the Becoming Bridge Builders podcast, your favorite podcast for everything from racial reconciliation to education, innovation, justice reform and leading change in the 21st century.
Keith Haney:This podcast is for people who love to be challenged with difficult topics but want practical solutions to solve these challenging issues.
Keith Haney:Becoming Bridge Builders makes change possible.
Keith Haney:Each week on the podcast, Keith invites innovative thought leaders to share how they are building bridges in their area of expertise.
Keith Haney:You will hear breakthrough ideas and concepts that are changing the world.
Keith Haney:He's featuring guests who are best selling authors, leaders at Microsoft, entrepreneurs, leading educators, professors, lawyers, and so many more.
Keith Haney:Listen in to learn how you can be the bridge to the change you are seeking.
Andy Wells:My guest today is Andy Wells.
Andy Wells:Andy holds a Master of Arts in Christian Apologetics from Viola University.
Andy Wells:And his education coupled with his life experience struggle to reconcile his faith and sexuality lends credibility to his writing.
Andy Wells:Andy's passion for the topic of sexuality and faith comes from his struggle with self acceptance.
Andy Wells:He knows the frustration of living in a secret as a secretly gay man and a publicly born again Christian.
Andy Wells:Finding a solution that works without having to abandon one's faith is Andy's desire to help others facing the same dilemma.
Andy Wells:Look forward to have a conversation with Andy on the podcast today.
Andy Wells:Well, it's so good to have Andy on the show.
Andy Wells:How you doing today, Andy?
Speaker C:Fantastic, Keith.
Speaker C:How are you?
Andy Wells:I'm good.
Andy Wells:Good to have you on foreign.
Speaker C:It's great to be here.
Andy Wells:I'd like to ask my guest this question, kind of get a chance to get to know you a little bit.
Andy Wells:What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Speaker C:You know, there was a time in my early 20s that I had just had a, I had just become a born again believer in Jesus and I made that known at work.
Speaker C:And one of the, one of the folks that was a lot closer to retirement than I was took me out to lunch.
Speaker C:He was a Baptist and an evangelical and he said, Andy, as you go through life as a Christian, there's going to be days that you don't feel like a Christian.
Speaker C:And you need to understand that we're Christians not based on how we feel.
Speaker C:We're Christians based on what we believe.
Andy Wells:No, I like that.
Andy Wells:That's an important reminder for sure, because feelings can, can fluctuate.
Speaker C:There's been days of good feelings and days of not so great.
Speaker C:And I've appreciated that advice my whole life.
Andy Wells:Yeah, definitely.
Andy Wells:I love to ask my guests to kind of think about People in their lives who have served to be an inspiration to them.
Andy Wells:Who are people in your life that you want to kind of give a shout out to because they've either been walked alongside you or inspired you or just been someone that's encouraged you?
Speaker C:I think as I think about the people that have changed me the most, my boyfriend is at the top of the list.
Speaker C:We've, we've, we come from different backgrounds, both socioeconomically.
Speaker C:He's immigrated and, and has a, and is a bit younger than me.
Speaker C:So he's got a different perspective from so many different angles.
Speaker C:And he's really challenged me to evaluate how I show up and also pay attention to the differences between me and the people around me.
Speaker C:Because the way I see things and the way I process things and interpret things and then respond to things are a lot different than the people around me living in such a diverse world as we are right now.
Speaker C:So yeah, I've really appreciated how he's challenged me to be a human.
Andy Wells:That's interesting.
Andy Wells:Let's talk about your book because I think the reason we came on, we want to talk about that probably come at from different points of view, but I'm dying to have the conversation with you because I think it's important to have a conversation.
Andy Wells:So tell us why you wrote the book.
Andy Wells:Tried to be straight.
Andy Wells:Opinions for gay Christians, Options for Greek Christians.
Andy Wells:I'm sorry, options for gay Christians, not opinions.
Speaker C:I think there's more opinions than there are options.
Andy Wells:There's probably yes.
Speaker C:So I wrote this book as the result of a conversation I had with a new friend.
Speaker C:I met a woman at a Christmas party and she told me about her, her son who was at the time in his early 20s but he had come out when he was 12 years old and they were at a non affirming Presbyterian church at the time.
Speaker C:And on my way home I thought about what it must have been like to be 12 years old and come out in a non affirming environment.
Speaker C:I didn't come out till I was 40.
Speaker C:I didn't come out until I was well separated from my fundamentalist evangelical university where I got my master's degree.
Speaker C:And it's a lot easier to come out when you're in your 40s than when you're 12.
Speaker C:At least that's my perception.
Speaker C:And so I thought about how hard that must have been.
Speaker C:It was hard at 40 for me and I wept.
Speaker C:It, it really, it told me that I had a lot of passion around the topic.
Speaker C:And throughout our conversation I realized that I have A lot to add to the conversation with not only my own story, but my own training.
Speaker C:So that's why I wrote the book.
Andy Wells:Before we get into your book more, let's talk about your training because I think that's helpful, because you come at it as not someone just from the outside.
Andy Wells:You came in as someone who was a conservative Christian in a fundamental background.
Andy Wells:So tell us a bit about your background.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:I grew up in the Episcopal Church, which was not a fundamentalist organization.
Speaker C:In fact, the church I grew up in was performing same sex wedding ceremonies.
Speaker C: As early as the mid-: Speaker C:When I was in my early 20s, I had this conversion experience where I became a born again Christian and went across the freeway to the conservative church in town and became very interested in sharing my faith with others and became very steeped in a very serious relationship with Jesus and through this faith that I was discovering.
Speaker C:So as I was sharing the gospel with people, they would ask me questions and then I would hit the books.
Speaker C:And I found a place where all the people who wrote those books that I was reading and researching were guest lecturers.
Speaker C:And I figured if I got my master's degree there, I could learn from those people.
Speaker C:And sure enough, that's what I did.
Speaker C:I have a master's degree in Christian apologetics, which is the theological discipline of defending the faith.
Speaker C:And that's from Biola University in Southern California.
Andy Wells:So tell us, as you went through your journey, how you.
Andy Wells:Because I looked at your book and you, you had an interesting line in there that you had to learn to reconcile the gospel and conservative Christian beliefs with homosexual.
Andy Wells:Homosexual desires and behaviors.
Andy Wells:How did you.
Andy Wells:And as, as someone who was trying to align those two, how did you come to the conclusion that you could align those.
Speaker C:Yeah, there's first looking at that word reconcile and asking what does that mean in this conversation?
Speaker C:The definition I like to use is to cause.
Speaker C:To coexist in harmony.
Speaker C:So how do I bring harmony between what is what I discovered through my own experimentation to be an unchangeable thing about me, and that would be my sexuality.
Speaker C:So the fact that I'm primarily my, my, my romantic desires are primarily focused on people of the same sex or gender.
Speaker C:That's what makes me.
Speaker C:I call myself gay.
Speaker C:So, so how do I reconcile that with a faith that is very important to me without giving the faith up?
Speaker C:If I can't give the gay part up, do I have any options?
Speaker C:And so I think there's a lot of different ways to approach it.
Speaker C:What I think is not helpful is when people in the church come out and say, you can't be gay and Christian because I tried really hard to not be gay and it didn't work.
Speaker C:Now if people could fall back on, yeah, but look at the thousands of people that are raising their hands saying it was success, they were successful and they're not gay anymore.
Speaker C:I might be, I might be the exception, or you might be able to dismiss my story, but my story is one of millions that say the same thing.
Speaker C:So I think about the folks that don't believe that we landed on the moon and they think it was all this one big conspiracy and it was done right, it was done on the Hollywood, on a Hollywood sound stage is what some of the folks believe.
Speaker C:And so it's easy to dismiss that because there's conspiracy theories all over the place.
Speaker C:But what if the astronauts said, that's right, we were on the sound stage.
Speaker C:What if the cameramen or camera people stepped forward and said, yeah, we were the camera people, we filmed it.
Speaker C:Then you'd start to believe the conspiracy theory was actually true.
Speaker C:In the case of the Christian movement to try to fix the gays, the leaders and founders of that movement have, have overwhelmingly aligned to say there is no such thing as conversion from a gay to a non gay person.
Speaker C:So that's where I say, when we're looking to reconcile, let's first call out the elephant in the room and say my attempt to not be gay is prone to failure.
Speaker C:And we've been trying for 50 years in this current movement.
Speaker C:50 years.
Speaker C:So after 50 years, if God was really in this, would there be a result other than failure, fraud and fornication, which is what we see when we look at the history of that movement.
Speaker C:So now to your question, because I've been dancing around it for four minutes.
Andy Wells:I think it's important because this issue is very complicated and as someone who is a conservative Christian, a Lutheran, so it doesn't fit into our purview as something that is, that is acceptable.
Andy Wells:So I want to have this conversation because I think we, we, we try to, like you said, we try to fix it and we ignore the fact that we live in a fallen world.
Andy Wells:And a fallen world means that it's broken in a lot of different ways.
Andy Wells:And that includes is broken in the fact of how we view sexuality.
Andy Wells:So laying that out there as, as, as we talk about this further, that is a reality there.
Andy Wells:What does that mean for us?
Andy Wells:Living in a broken world and being an apologetic?
Andy Wells:You know what it's like, we have this brokenness and what does that look like, as we try to, as you used it, as we talk about reconcile our brokenness with the word of God?
Andy Wells:I just want to lay out there for those who are listening to my podcast where I stand.
Andy Wells:But I think it's important that we do have this conversation.
Speaker C:And the people that say to me at this point in our conversation, you've thrown out the Bible, you can't be gay and Christian and I'm not willing to listen or even talk about anything else.
Speaker C:They're the ones that just have nothing to offer this conversation.
Speaker C:But you and I can have a conversation about what the real, what some real options are.
Speaker C:And here's what I've laid out.
Speaker C:You either believe that being gay is a sin or you don't.
Andy Wells:Right?
Speaker C:There are people that use the same sets of hermeneutic which hermeneutics is the art and science of biblical interpretation.
Speaker C:And so there are people that use the same sets of rules that we all that conservatives follow to come to a different conclusion about whether six verses in the new, in the New and Old Testament forbid same sex relations.
Speaker C:And so now we don't have time to get into the details and who's right and who's wrong and have that argument.
Speaker C:I'm happy to have it, but it's just, but that's, but that's number one.
Speaker C:You either believe that or you don't.
Speaker C:And both sets of people need to be addressed where they're at.
Speaker C:So if my solution says all you have to do is throw out what you believe and adopt something completely different, it's not going to work.
Speaker C:So I come at this.
Speaker C:I hold the Bible in the same regard as I did when I was at Biola.
Speaker C:And so, and I, and I personally believe that if you look at those six passages, there's really good reasons to not believe that it condemns same sex relationships.
Speaker C:However, I didn't write to me, I wrote to the person who says, yeah, but I do.
Speaker C:I look at, you know, Romans 1 and see, see a bad thing.
Speaker C:So the first place I start is the gospel.
Speaker C:I start with this idea that no matter what you do, you're going to be wrong in your theology.
Andy Wells:And, and you've made all the theologians very uncomfortable.
Speaker C:And in 40, well, 40,000 denominations, you know, they'll say, hey, 40,000 people can't be wrong.
Speaker C:Well, 40,000 denominations can't be right.
Speaker C:40,000 denominations of Christianity around the world.
Speaker C:And most of those denominations developed as a result of a theological difference.
Speaker C:And some of them are really, really like the Adventists believe that we need to observe the Sabbath and we need to worship on Saturday and if we don't, we're sinning.
Andy Wells:Right.
Speaker C:And they're really adamant about that.
Speaker C:But it's like, so, so is there room for some deviation in how we interpret scripture?
Speaker C:And the answer I think has to be yes.
Speaker C:Otherwise of those 40,000 denominations, I'm probably, I mean, just rolling the dice because I'm not, you know, I'm not a scholar of ancient literature the way I ought to be to be able to make that decision on my own.
Speaker C:I've got to trust people.
Speaker C:And so yeah, I think, I think giving ourselves some grace and mercy.
Speaker C:You know, I've been doing a lot of studies in the book of James recently and I, in the authorship of James, there's eight different options for who you might think is the author.
Speaker C:I like the early date and I like the early author of James the Just who was Jesus, brother.
Speaker C:And for non scholarly reasons, one of the reasons I love it is in James, I believe it's James 4.
Speaker C:James the Just says mercy triumphs over justice.
Speaker C:James the just said that.
Andy Wells:Right.
Speaker C:I think we need to come at ourselves with mercy and grace and love before we start enacting the law.
Speaker C:And that's why in every topic in my book has one chapter except for the gospel and it has two.
Speaker C:Because that's where we really have to start.
Andy Wells:Right?
Andy Wells:Going back to our, our initial point as we started this part of the conversation, looking at do you look at homosexuality as a sin or not?
Andy Wells:That's where the dividing line really is about whether you can be gay and be a Christian.
Andy Wells:As I pointed out, we and our church body would say that it is a sin, but that doesn't mean that that sin over any other sin necessarily is unforgivable.
Andy Wells:And I think that's also the point that we have to, to wrestle with.
Andy Wells:We, we, we love to get into, I think degrees of sin.
Andy Wells:Whereas God sees all sin is the same.
Andy Wells:But there's only one unforgivable sin and that's the sin of unbelief.
Andy Wells:So I wrestle with not, not the, not where our, our church stands, but I wrestle with how do we, how do we love people?
Andy Wells:Like you're, like, you're, like your book is trying to do.
Andy Wells:I think how do you lovingly communicate the gospel to people and, and not alienate them in this conversation?
Andy Wells:And that's the goal really of me wanting to have you on because I, I don't think we ever have this conversation.
Andy Wells:Where is, where is grace in this.
Andy Wells:And we wrestle with how do you love, as we would say, how do you love the sinner, so to speak, and, and not accept the sin at the same time?
Andy Wells:And.
Andy Wells:But we wrestle with that only on certain kinds of sin.
Speaker C:Yes, we do.
Andy Wells:You know, some sins were kind of like, yeah, it's okay, but some we go, this is more serious in others.
Andy Wells:And that's where I'm glad we're having this conversation.
Andy Wells:And I'm sure people will be angry with me, but I want, I want to have the dialogue is how do we connect with people and share the gospel with them and let the gospel do what the gospel does.
Speaker C:So, Keith, your followers and I agree with you 100%.
Speaker C:And that's why I've been more excited about this conversation than a hundred of the conversations with people who agree with me.
Speaker C:And I knew just looking at your CV and also listening to your other podcasts, I know that you start from a place of love, right?
Speaker C:So I don't need to meet with the Westboro Baptist Church and talk about this.
Andy Wells:Probably not a good place to start.
Speaker C:And for those who aren't aware, the Westboro Baptist Church carries signs around saying God hates fags.
Andy Wells:Right.
Speaker C:And, and so, you know, and so I think the important thing is that I don't encourage people to change the church.
Speaker C:Now there's Matthew Vines is another worker in this field and he believes that the church needs to change and he's out there to try to equip people to help them do that.
Speaker C:I believe that if you are a believer, and you are, and you have this, this gift of homosexuality, then you should find a place that will allow you to grow as a Christian in your faith without having to lie, without having to hide, without having to shove things under the carpet, without having to be a second class citizen.
Speaker C:I have a chapter in my book on why it's important to be a member of a church and as a member be active in service in that church.
Speaker C:And it is really about, hey, the spiritual gifts are you.
Speaker C:The spiritual gifts are given to me as a believer.
Speaker C:I become the gift to the church.
Speaker C:It's not a gift to me.
Speaker C:God's gift, spiritual gifts are.
Speaker C:God lets me be gifted the way he has, and I become the gift to the church.
Speaker C:If the church says, sit in the row and don't talk because you're a homosexual and you don't belong, the gift has been excluded from the church.
Speaker C:And so in order for me to grow as a person and as a Christian, I need to be in A congregation that will allow me to exercise my gifts.
Andy Wells:Stay with us.
Andy Wells:We'll be right back.
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Andy Wells:Just like the number four.
Andy Wells:Freedom mobile.com I'm curious how your book has been received by, by, by the church because like you said, this is an issue where, you know, we have, we have two sides of this argument.
Andy Wells:We have some that's like, let's change the church like you just talked about and make it accepting.
Andy Wells:And there are people who worried that if you open up one door, you open up Pandora's box of all kinds of things that you don't want to, you know, sacrifice God's word on.
Andy Wells:And there are other people like myself who go, I still think it's something that is wrong, but I still think we have to love those people no matter what, love people who are broken.
Andy Wells:And so I'm of the belief that the church is supposed to be a hospital for sick souls and we all have sick souls.
Andy Wells:So how is your book being received?
Andy Wells:As I go back to that original question as people read into it and I'm sure you're getting some, some strong responses on both sides of the aisle.
Speaker C:I have gotten strong responses on both sides of the aisle.
Speaker C:And I will say that one of the critics that read my book and left a comment compared me to Matthew Vines and, and that was a great compliment.
Speaker C:He was like, you just, you know, like.
Speaker C:And, But I think I'm disappointed.
Speaker C:And the reason I'm disappointed is I wrote a book to people that doesn't require you to believe that being gay is not a sin.
Speaker C:And that has been largely overlooked.
Andy Wells:Right.
Speaker C:And, and so, you know, there's a chapter on celibacy in there.
Speaker C:I've gotten feedback and I don't, it's not my gig.
Speaker C:Celibacy is not my thing.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And yet I've gotten feedback that, thanking me for my encouragement and tooling people up on how to live a life of celibacy.
Speaker C:And so I'm.
Speaker C:That's what I'm proud about, is I'm proud of the fact that the book allows people to hold their view and still have a solution, rather than.
Speaker C:And when I say, hey, this is.
Speaker C:This is what I believe, I make that very clear.
Speaker C:And I also make other options very clear.
Speaker C:One of the things I like to encourage people is there are six passages that talk about that we think that people think, talk about being gay.
Speaker C:One of them, of course, is Sodom and Gomorrah, where an entire city showed up to sexually assault two visitors.
Speaker C:And we think that has to do with.
Speaker C:Well, some people.
Speaker C:I say we.
Speaker C:I shouldn't say we.
Speaker C:Some people believe that has to do with homosexuality.
Speaker C:And it's like, it's not the.
Speaker C:That's not the non celibate life that I practice, but we'll leave that alone.
Speaker C:There are over 100 passages that reference the earth unmoved in the center of the universe, and yet Galileo and Copernicus looked out their window and said, that's not how it is, guys.
Speaker C:Our interpretation was incorrect.
Speaker C:After 50 years of trying, the church is causing harm, documented and documentable harm, measurable harm to people.
Speaker C:The only group of people, psychologically and emotionally, that don't do better in a religious community are LGBTQ people.
Speaker C:The only demographic of people that don't do better are LGBTQ people when they go to our churches.
Speaker C:And so that, to me, is looking out the window and saying, hey, you know what?
Speaker C:I believe in the Bible.
Speaker C:Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong.
Speaker C:Maybe we can look again.
Speaker C:And there's other examples, like women singing in choirs, right?
Speaker C:Or.
Speaker C:Or how about interracial marriage?
Speaker C:Actually, some people.
Speaker C:Some people still hold that interracial marriage is bad.
Speaker C:I listen to a.
Speaker C:I listened to a sermon of a very conservative.
Speaker C:Leave his name out so I don't get sued.
Speaker C:But he said it.
Andy Wells:Good, because I don't want to get sued either.
Speaker C:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C:But very conservative president of a conservative seminary who was defending the office of slavery, the practice of slavery.
Speaker C:And you know what?
Speaker C:I read books that slavery from a biblical perspective had more biblical evidence in that stood against the abolitionists.
Speaker C:And the abolitionist argument was, hey, look, if the Bible says that we ought to treat people this way, we need to ignore that.
Speaker C:This is not okay.
Speaker C:And that was the weaker biblical argument at the time.
Speaker C:And today it's like, I think I would hope that most of my Christian siblings would stand against any form and any expression of slavery anywhere.
Speaker C:And yet how did.
Speaker C:That's 150 years.
Speaker C: t was biblical up until about: Andy Wells:It's funny you mentioned it.
Andy Wells:I just heard that someone that I know believes interracial marriage is a sin, which disturbs me because I am interracially married.
Andy Wells:But you're right, that is concerning.
Andy Wells:You know, I think what's also missing is if you look at the history of sexuality and what the church did to the Greco Roman view of sexuality, it uplifted it because what it was was.
Andy Wells:And you know, this I'm sure.
Andy Wells:But the audience may not that basically men could do whatever they wanted to do as long as they didn't sleep with somebody else's wife.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:And that's because they emasculated that man.
Andy Wells:Right.
Speaker C:Had nothing to do with a woman.
Andy Wells:Right.
Andy Wells:But then Christianity came in and said sex should be measured.
Andy Wells:It should be within the bounds of marriage.
Andy Wells:And, and that.
Andy Wells:That was called as really the first sexual revolution.
Andy Wells:Now I think what gets, what gets so confused in today's society is sex is not.
Andy Wells:Has now gone from procreation mainly to your identity.
Andy Wells:And you walk around now with your, your sexual identity on your sleeve.
Andy Wells:And so it becomes very personal, I think, and it's not inside of something.
Andy Wells:So I think that's also confused our modern psyche a little bit.
Andy Wells:So that's just my, my two cents on that.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's the idea of.
Speaker C:I mean there are conservative Christian theologians who say the only form of marriage found in scripture is one man and one woman.
Speaker C:And it just blows my mind because where did the 12 tribes of Israel come from?
Speaker C:A dad, two wives, two concubines.
Speaker C:So I mean, and there's arguments on both sides, but it's like when we, when we look at the, the biblical represent the biblical example of good sexual relationship.
Speaker C:Unless you believe it was a symbol symbolic.
Speaker C:The Song of Solomon or the Song of Songs.
Speaker C:Was Solomon a good example of one woman, one man?
Andy Wells:I think he had 420 concubines, if I remember.
Speaker C:And, and yet this is the example that God gives us.
Speaker C:And so it just makes me question.
Speaker C:And I'm not here to blow apart anyone's view of marriage or.
Speaker C:Well, actually part of it.
Speaker C:I, I do because I believe that gay marriage is okay.
Speaker C:But I mean, when we accept the Roman definition of marriage, which was where monogamy started, and we.
Speaker C:And we ex and we narrow our viewers.
Speaker C:That might be extra biblical.
Speaker C:I'm not saying it's bad.
Speaker C:I'm not saying it's good.
Speaker C:It's just extra biblical to me.
Speaker C:That's the way I come at that.
Speaker C:The whole marriage question.
Speaker C:That's how I come at the marriage question.
Andy Wells:Right.
Andy Wells:I love that we're having this conversation.
Andy Wells:I don't know how many people are brave enough to have it.
Andy Wells:So I'm glad you came on to have the conversation with me.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:You're amazing, Keith.
Speaker C:And the reason I say that is that we have become afraid to talk and treat each other like brothers.
Andy Wells:Right.
Speaker C:And look, we've been talking for half an hour now, and neither of us.
Andy Wells:Is bleeding, at least not publicly.
Andy Wells:No, you're right.
Andy Wells:And I think we.
Andy Wells:That's what I always wanted this podcast to be, was a place to have a conversation.
Andy Wells:Yeah.
Andy Wells:Right before I.
Andy Wells:I talked to you, I just talked to a young gal who left the church and asked her why she came back.
Andy Wells:And she talked about how she thought she was pansexual because society and social media had so confused her and she was a people pleaser, that people pleasing meant that whatever by somebody wanted even that.
Andy Wells:If that was sexually, I was that person.
Andy Wells:And I do wonder how much of our young people are being confused by this idea of how do I please everyone and have lost that sense of the identity begins in who Christ and who God created you to be.
Andy Wells:And if you can't get that right, everything else is already confused.
Speaker C:I think I hope to not engage in.
Speaker C:In the conversations that take me down those rabbit trails, because who I have in my heart to reach is the person who is huddled in a closet, afraid, failing at every corner.
Speaker C:And the message is, God doesn't love.
Speaker C:There's no such thing as a gay Christian.
Speaker C:And if you're not a Christian, God's not in it for you.
Andy Wells:Right.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So that person needs to understand the gospel.
Speaker C:They need to understand the different areas in scripture that.
Speaker C:That are being used and how they're being used.
Speaker C:And they need a path forward that's going to have some success to it.
Speaker C:And unless your church can give an option that has a success record, then I'm going to encourage that believer to let your church get out of their way and move forward on some other path that God has for them.
Speaker C:And I'm not going to say that your church needs to change, because I don't think that's a realistic request.
Andy Wells:Right.
Andy Wells:So, Andy, I'm curious for people like you just described who are.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Andy Wells:Outside the church, first of all, speak to them who think that there is no hope for them, that they're.
Andy Wells:That God has rejected them.
Andy Wells:What message do you have for them?
Andy Wells:Then I'll ask you a second question to follow up on that.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:I believe the overarching message in Jesus, life and ministry, death and resurrection, is that God loves us passionately.
Andy Wells:That's pretty simple.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I'm getting choked up, so I can't talk, and I hate getting choked up.
Speaker C:But God loves us so passionately and wants us to love each other.
Speaker C:And there are people who, looking at a church, it causes their adrenaline to activate.
Speaker C:And I'm sorry that that's what the church did.
Speaker C:But that person saying that that person needs to walk back into the church and figure it all out.
Speaker C:It's an.
Speaker C:It's a cruel, cruel request.
Speaker C:So my message to those people who have been hurt seriously by the religious organizations that they've been a member of is that people hurt you and God loves you and you may never ever decide to go back to a church again, but God loves you.
Andy Wells:That's a powerful message.
Andy Wells:And that's the message I want everyone to hear, is that God does love you and God's never stop pursuing you.
Andy Wells:No matter what your brokenness is, he still pursues you.
Andy Wells:No, God doesn't throw anything away or anyone away.
Andy Wells:So you're not a throwaway individual or throwaway creature of God's.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:The second thing I would say is to the people inside the church is to really ask, where are we adopting the performance gospel?
Speaker C:Where?
Speaker C:When did our gospel go from believe to behave?
Speaker C:And are you about sin and not sin?
Speaker C:Or are you about love, grace, mercy?
Speaker C:All right, because James the just said mercy triumphs over justice.
Andy Wells:Very, very true.
Andy Wells:One of my favorite passages is Matthew chapter 11, where Jesus says, my yoke is easy and my burdens are light.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Andy Wells:And that's not about suffering.
Andy Wells:It's about rules and regulations.
Andy Wells:He doesn't put a bunch of rules and regulations on it.
Andy Wells:Doesn't mean that we don't have things we're supposed to do.
Andy Wells:But if we're guided by 613 rabbitical laws or whatever those number is, we're missing the point of the relationship with Jesus and what the power of the gospel can do.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And of course, that was Jesus said, the religious leaders tie up heavy burdens and put them on the backs of their followers and they're not willing to lift a finger to help.
Andy Wells:Right.
Speaker C:And so the heavy burdens aspect of this conversation is you tell me don't be gay, you tell me live a celibate life, you tell me to do, to, to take up these heavy burdens.
Speaker C:And then you say, oh yeah, the gospel, it's a costly grace.
Speaker C:You're tying up heavy burdens for me and you.
Speaker C:And you can't lift a finger to help because there is no help.
Speaker C:There's no such thing.
Speaker C:We've been trying for 50 years again, millions upon millions of dollars have been spent trying to pray the gay away, fix the gay, do this other thing.
Speaker C:All the leaders walked away and said, it doesn't work, guys.
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker C:And so now it's time.
Speaker C: In, in: Speaker C:His name is Michael Buzzi.
Speaker C:He spent about four or five years in that ministry and has spent the rest of his life making amends for the damage he did.
Speaker C:And he witnessed genital mutilation, self mutilation, self harm suicides.
Speaker C:That's the fruit.
Speaker C:When we say don't be gay, you can't be gay and Christian.
Speaker C:That's the result.
Speaker C:And so that's why I say the churches who I'm not on a mission to change, but I would encourage, if they're willing to ask the question, performance gospel or gospel of grace, love and mercy?
Andy Wells:Yeah.
Andy Wells:And I would love to say I have all the answers, but I don't know.
Speaker C:We don't.
Speaker C:It's a hard topic.
Andy Wells:I know it's a complicated topic as well as we started out a complicated topic.
Andy Wells:But we as a church are supposed to give people the gospel.
Andy Wells:The law is already beating people up.
Andy Wells:I mean it's a, it's a balance of law, gospel.
Andy Wells:But where is the gospel come in our conversation.
Andy Wells:So I'm, I'm glad we had this conversation.
Andy Wells:I pray that people will learn from it.
Andy Wells:And for you, I wonder as you go about what the work you're doing now, what do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:My legacy does not have to have my name attached to it, but I would like people to be, to experience what comes from loving and serving each other in a real way.
Speaker C:I don't believe we get from our relationship with Jesus or with God through Jesus.
Speaker C:I believe Jesus fully God, incidentally.
Speaker C:So we won't go to Christology is we're solid, but I want people through their relationship with God to understand that, that where we get the cool Stuff isn't from going to church, it's from serving.
Speaker C:So, so we move ourselves forward in our spiritual lives and with spiritual growth through real acts of love and service to each other.
Speaker C:And so I want to free people from trying to get out under the yoke of their sin and allow them to not worry about their sin because Jesus paid for it.
Speaker C: , chapters: Speaker C:And it's like just, just do some work for somebody else where there's no payment in it for your, for you.
Speaker C:And you can live a, you can have a better, more enjoyable life.
Speaker C:And that life will be walking hand in hand with the Creator of the universe.
Speaker C:That's really cool.
Speaker C:I want to help people remove barriers so that they can walk hand in hand with the creator of the universe because it's a really cool thing.
Andy Wells:It's funny you mentioned what you described because that was one of our church fathers, Dr.
Andy Wells:Martin Luther was beating himself daily because he's like, I kiss case I sinned again.
Andy Wells:I got to go up and confess that.
Andy Wells:So he just kept abusing himself because he, he kept sinning over and over again.
Andy Wells:And he ran across Romans 8 and he remembered grace.
Andy Wells:And we're not saved by our works, but we're saved by grace.
Andy Wells:And so that, that formed our three foundational statements of our church body.
Andy Wells:Grace alone, faith alone, and scripture alone.
Andy Wells:And so we call them the three speed days.
Andy Wells:So, you know, that's the three souls.
Andy Wells:I mean, but that, that really is the heart of what we do, is remembering that it is by grace alone, through faith alone and scripture alone, that we are, that we are saved.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker C:The interesting thing is some people say, okay, you've gotten such a blessing, so now give back.
Speaker C:What, What I have found in my life is that I get the blessing when I'm giving.
Andy Wells:Right?
Speaker C:It's not out of obligation and it's not, it's.
Speaker C:It's just that, wow, my life gets so much better when I'm, when I'm able to love somebody in a real way.
Speaker C:And you know, Jesus kind of said things like, if you only love the people who loved you, it really doesn't count.
Andy Wells:Sorry, not love.
Andy Wells:Is it.
Speaker C:Love the person that makes you uncomfortable?
Speaker C:Have a 45 minute conversation with somebody that doesn't agree with you and start smiling and end smiling.
Speaker C:This is what I think when God's looking at us going, yes, my kids are getting along with each other.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker C:Here's another thing about this performance gospel thing.
Speaker C:So do you think as a.
Speaker C:As a maybe you're.
Speaker C:Are you a parent?
Andy Wells:Yes.
Andy Wells:Yes.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:More than one kid or just one kid?
Andy Wells:I have six.
Speaker C:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker C:Okay.
Andy Wells:I took.
Andy Wells:So I took Genesis seriously.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:I love it.
Speaker C:I love it.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So here's a question for you.
Speaker C:I'm not a parent because, you know, the people I date don't.
Speaker C:That doesn't happen.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So, so let's.
Speaker C:Let me ask you this.
Speaker C:What's more important to you?
Speaker C:How your kids treat each other or their report card or how they treat each other?
Speaker C:So when we think about our heavenly Father, how the kids treat each other, or how we perform, right?
Speaker C:Let's figure out, guys and gals and people, let's figure out how to love each other better.
Speaker C:Because I really believe that's what brings a smile to God's face.
Andy Wells:Yeah, that's awesome.
Andy Wells:So, Andy, anything I haven't asked that I should have asked you?
Andy Wells:We covered a lot.
Speaker C:No, you know, it's been a great conversation.
Speaker C:Keith, I appreciate you as a person.
Andy Wells:I appreciate you as well.
Speaker C:I really do.
Andy Wells:This was a courageous conversation we just had.
Speaker C:But you, you know, I do have to say, I got to hand it to you.
Speaker C:You know, you've been wonderful in this conversation and I really appreciate where you approached it, how you approached it.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:And I appreciate just from the get go, the ability to have it.
Andy Wells:No, I do too.
Andy Wells:I think it's an important conversation.
Andy Wells:Once again, what's the name of your book?
Andy Wells:Because I Messed it up the First Time and where.
Andy Wells:Where can people Find it?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Tried to be Straight Options for Gay Christians.
Speaker C:It's available on Amazon.
Speaker C:It's available through some other smaller outlets, but Amazon's the easiest place to get it.
Speaker C:The website is tried to be straight.com and if you look up Andy Wells and Gay, you'll find my site.
Speaker C:So if you.
Speaker C:If all else fails, just Google Andy Wells and Gay.
Speaker C:I finally beat out a character from Buffy the Vampire Slayer of the same name.
Speaker C:My website is now above that in the listings.
Andy Wells:So there you go.
Andy Wells:So, Andy, thanks so much for this conversation and blessings.
Andy Wells:It was truly a great conversation to have and I pray that people on people appreciate the fact that we had this conversation.
Speaker C:Likewise, Keith.
Keith Haney:Thanks for listening to Becoming Bridge Builder.
Keith Haney:If you enjoyed this episode and want to help support the podcast Please subscribe and share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review.
Keith Haney:To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on Instagram keithhaney and on Getter and Twitter revheadpin or on his website at alightbreaksthrough.org thanks again and tune in next time.
