The ABCs of Mentorship: Lessons from Behind Bars to Boardrooms

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:01:00

Welcome to Becoming Bridge Builders. Where we explore ideas that shape leadership and transform organizations.

Today, we're diving into an incredible impact of mentorship with Dr. Kim Nugent.

From correctional facilities to corporate teams, Dr. Nugent has pioneered mentorship driven programs that shift mindsets, build leadership and create lasting impact. Her groundbreaking work in the corrections industry is just one example of how mentorship can change lives and and transform entire organization.

Dr. Nugent, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:01:31

Thank you so much. I am so excited to be on the show today.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:01:36

Well, good. I'm so excited to have you on. I'm going to ask you my favorite question. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:01:44

The one I remember most is if in doubt, don't.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:01:49

Okay, I love that.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:01:52

Very good guiding principle by the way.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:01:57

Probably works out really well in corrections too.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:02:01

One of many places. Yes, absolutely, definitely.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:02:07

So let's jump into your story. So tell us about your journey. What led you into what work you're doing?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:02:16

Okay, sure. So the book from Prison of Possibilities is not my first book actually. I'd written many books around mentorship in different areas.

So for corporations, for someone who's being is unseen and wants to be promoted, but can't seem to get the visibility that they want or they've gone for a job and they were turned down, they're variety. So that was one thing.

I certainly written mentorship with regards to high school students and other different areas and it works in mentorship is doesn't matter what the environment is.

However, I did get a call from a fellow author and he was doing meditation work and at first prison and he was seeing amazing results working with these men and called me and said, you know Hank, have you ever seen a book about mentorship in prisons? And I said, no, I haven't. I've seen a lot of great books, but not that. And he said, would you be willing to write it? It was just a suggestion.

And so I said yes intuitively, there was no hesitation. And I hung up the phone and thought what the heck did I just say yes to? And the reason is because I don't write about things I don't know about.

And so definitely this was a new arena for me. And so I went on a very long multi year journey about research before I wrote my first work. And that became the book.

And it's really a six to nine month curriculum to be able to work on several things at the same time.

So one thing is really about changing behavior, uncovering those blind spots and then the next is really about career development and ultimately a practical plan, plan for release. And so the combination of kind of those three objectives is really getting some amazing results.

I didn't know that that book would turn into my mission in life, but it really has and I get the opportunity to be able to train incarcerated men. I predominantly work with men, it works with women as well. But in maximum security prisons and to be able to see the results is, is incredible.

You know, one of the things that I say often and I, I'm sure that you believe this as well is when we know better, we do better and you know, showing them the pathway about what's possible and they're not forgotten like people do care and to be able to spend time is really great. The other piece of that book is that, you know, I'm training mentors so it's peer led mentorship.

And when to lived experiences are being shared with one another throughout this six to nine month journey. Real change of transformation happens.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:04:55

I love that. So let's dig into your book because I love the way your book is kind of couched here that it's a way to develop a plan for successful transition.

I worked when I was in the parish, we had one of our members who had a ministry for recently incarcerated people who are trying to transition back into society. And so she had a cleaning company that she would hire ex convicts to kind of be able to help them get back into.

What are some of the struggles that you notice with people getting back into society, trying to transition back into, to normal life after prison?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:05:31

Well, I don't, you know, I do not sugarcoat what, how difficult it's going to be. Honestly, I think that's the first thing. And the truth is, is that whatever people think, you know, like how hard could it be? It is incredibly hard.

So think about you're leaving and you're uncertain about a lot of things. Finance, employment, housing, some of the basics.

Depending on how long they've been incarcerated, one thing could be that, you know, technology has left them behind. They don't have access to technology.

And some of the things we take for granted in the life that we lead every single day, they've never been exposed to. But I think the biggest thing is is that deciding where am I going to live. So maybe, maybe it's where I came from, but maybe not.

Maybe that environment actually caused some of the reasons that they're incarcerated. So if that's not a choice, where can they go? And it's not like I'm just going to say housing choices are Readily accepting someone who has a record.

Let's just say that the second thing is this is a wonderful time actually to be living and working and we have more second chance employers than we've ever had, but we don't have enough. So that's another piece of it.

But you know, if I take two steps backwards before we get into the logistics of release, what really has to shift more than anything else, and this is for any audience regardless of what circumstances are, is mindset. If my mindset doesn't change to something could be possible, then guess what, it becomes self fulfilling.

Like Henry Ford said, if you think you can or you think you can't, it's true. And so really we do spend a lot of time on mindset to be able to say what do you really want and what does that look like?

The other thing is that for a lot of people, when they leave, if they're fortunate to live in a state where they get any money at all, and I do mean any. So in Alabama it can be $20. In Mississippi it can be $50. In Texas it can be $100. That's it.

So I want the audience to think about if you were starting from scratch and you were leaving prison and you have been incarcerated 10 or 20 years and you're standing on the other side and you have $100, we'll be will be generous today. What do you do? Let's talk about transportation, right? I don't want to buy a cup of coffee very many times anymore. And then all those other pieces.

Can someone pick you up? Are you going to take the bus? Where are you going to live?

And you do that for about three days and then you tell me what your choices are if someone's not there to walk you through the process.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:08:13

Wow, I love that your book as kind of an ABC is laid out in abc. So tell us why you picked that particular. I know as an author you always try to figure out how is the best way to communicate what I want to do.

So, so tell us about your abc, your key traits and skills that you have listed that way.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:08:29

So I love the ABCs. I don't know how I just stumbled upon that, but it's pretty consistent in my work. But the reason is it's because A is for attitude.

And for me, 80% of life is really the attitude we bring to a situation or to a person or to an event. I think that's particularly important this week as holidays are happening.

We want to be able to, you know, go in with really a Very expansive mindset or, you know, growth mindset or looking for possibilities and conversations with family that even if we haven't gotten along with in the past, we're going to make a real intentional effort about being positive and getting in their world for a minute. So A is attitude, B is behavior, C is communication, D is decision making.

I won't go on and on, but the reason is, is that there are 26 letters which theoretically, if all worked out perfectly, that would be six months. Now we know things don't work that way in a prison. It's because of lockdowns and other things.

It's, I always say six to nine months because it could be a stop start. However, you, I am a coach as well and we know as coaches that you really can't change a person's behavior in less than six months. And that is ideal.

So maybe they start to change their behavior, but the people around them are not seeing any significant change. The change of changing perceptions of people that we're with takes much longer. And so that's why at least six months.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:09:55

I love that. Let's dig into a little bit about your mentorship program in prison because I'm going to dig into that more as you talked about the book.

But your work in correctional facilities to me is fascinating. How did those mentorship programs change the culture there?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:10:11

I am so proud that you asked that question. Let me just say this, not for me, but for the men. I always say it's best their program, it's not mine. I just provide a structure.

So if I just talk about mentorship in general, regardless of whether we're in a prison facility or not, there are a lot of really good hearted people out there who truly want to have a mentorship program. Could be in the corporation, could be a university, could be alumni group. You know, you can think of lots of examples, right? Sounds great.

Except that here's what really happens is that about after the two or three sessions it sort of fades away. They don't really have a structure or any kind of questions that have been developed for them to keep that conversation going.

And that's really not what you want. You really want to be able to have a structure where the expectations were set.

So these guys meet weekly with four men in their group and every single week they come back together. There's an expectation when you read an article, it's about tension and a half. Answer your questions in preparation for the meeting.

The mentor has a set of questions that they ask and so they're making really good Use of time. Now, the really cool thing that has happened organically is that they have that meeting, but they do see each other sometimes.

They're often podmates, if you will, or in a dorm or in a unit. And so those conversations continue. So I think that's important. But I want to speak to evidence based approaches. So it sounds great.

So what, you know, what can I prove at this point? Right.

And so one of the things a warden taught me very early on, he said, kim, instead of just taking a look at completion rates, let's take a look at rule violations, which of course is more important. And so we did.

And so we've been tracking in Mississippi the last three and a half years, two specific prisons about the men who've gone through that program. 498 have gone through that program in three and a half years. And a typical rule number of rule violations in one of those prisons is 3, 100amonth.

In the other prison, it's about 300amonth. Rule violations are serious. Now, it could be, you could think of whatever serious offenses, but those are serious violations.

And so it's very important that we track that at this point. The 498 men over three and a half years, we've had a total, and I told you what, the 300, 100 against the general population.

We've had three total in one facility and three total in the other facility.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:12:39

Wow.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:12:39

The reason I'm super proud of these guys is when they know we hold them to a higher standard, that's mentees and mentors. They definitely get visibility by the staff for sure.

But the really cool thing to see when you walk in, I wish you could walk with me three and a half years ago, walk in and walk back with me now and just feel the difference. It's so much safer for the staff, number one, as well as the incarcerated men. And it is just a better place to be.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:13:11

I'm curious. This sounds wonderful. What were some of the challenges you faced and you began this program?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:13:19

That's an easy question. Actually, I thought it was going to be hard. It's really easy question. And that is having someone say yes to that. Yes.

We would really like for you to come into our facility and do training and development around us. And so that was that. And I've had a couple of yeses since, for sure. And I'm really excited about that.

I think the opportunity, though is for anyone who's listening, there's a couple of opportunities that come to mind.

One is, well, I'll say this, you may or may not know the statistic that 50% of families in the United States have someone who is incarcerated or has been incarcerated. So I think that's important. So we're not talking just a few people, number one.

Number two, if you have someone or you are politically connected or you're in law enforcement or something like that, having conversations about getting programming into these facilities is ideal for everyone.

I'm not talking about my program, any kind of program, to be able to help build idle time, which is, if we're not feeling light upon, it's a problem, and then being able to give them some, to be able to lift them up, to build skill sets so that when they do leave, whether that's a certification, whether that's a ged, whether that's an associate degree or community college credit, all of those things can help. Religious programs like Bridges to Life, Kairos Ministry, Mike Bartle Ministry, Bible study classes, all help on this road to true transformation.

And I don't think one program can do it by itself. I think there's enough room for everyone to be able to participate in programming.

I think the other opportunity is for us to write our letters to our legislators to talk about how important just a few dollars investing in programming can have amazing result. It has. One day these men and women will be released and they're going to come back and live in your community.

So do you want someone who's invested in programming or not? Your tools?

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:15:23

Exactly. We talked about how powerful mentoring can be in your setting. How does those principles translate or apply to corporate teams?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:15:33

Absolutely.

So the research actually says that if you have a mentor, and we'll talk about incorporations, for example, the effect of a strong mentorship relationship can last at a minimum, 10 years, up to 30 years in terms of the impact that they leave on you with regards to how to navigate careers in this particular case. And I do have a book called Promotion Protocol that really speaks to that, Keith, because, you know, I was.

I've been very blessed in my life to have some. Had some amazing career opportunities, especially over 20 years in the hospitality industry and ended my career with Hilton Hotels.

Incredible company. Then I transitioned into. I wanted to be a teacher, went back to school, started at the bottom, worked my way back up to university president.

So I've had a viewpoint, a very, I think, objective viewpoint about employees trying to navigate their careers.

And what will happen oftentimes is they see something they're excited about, and then all of a sudden what happens is they apply for that job and they don't get it. And then what happens next is it's very interesting, it's very consistent. What I'm about to share is that I'm disappointed.

And when I'm disappointed, my mindset goes not in a positive direction. These people don't get me. It's too political. Can't they see the value?

I've been here all of that, and then what happens is our behavior follows our mindset, and then it becomes self fulfilling.

Well, if you have a mentor, a mentor can pull you out of that self talk and be able to reframe it and start asking questions so that we can get to work on some things that maybe you really do need to work on. And it could be a blind spot because we all have them. And that's why I love a mentor, particularly because they've walked the path.

They're walking side by side with me, but they have walked this path, and they can be an incredible resource to you. I've had two amazing mentors in my life, and I wouldn't be the person I am today without their mentorship.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:17:37

So one of my key things I love talking about is leadership.

And I'm just curious, as you think about, in your experience, how has mentorship accelerated leadership growth compared to traditional leadership training programs?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:17:55

So I run a lot of emerging leaders programs, and some of those emerging leaders programs, they. They do have the opportunity to have a mentor. And what I see from that is it's a safe space.

So when you're going up the leadership ladder, wherever you are, a lot of times you feel like you're alone, you don't have someone to talk to, or we can't talk confidentially about some things that are going on operationally.

But with that mentor, it's a safe space to talk about things that really matter and to really use them as a sounding board to be able to talk about how we want to be able to go forward in that situation or what conversations need to be had that maybe are not being had. So conflict. You know, conflict resolution is a really powerful skill to have. And so sometimes people are conflict.

They avoid conflict because they want to, I don't know, be nice or they're uncomfortable with it.

But we've got to really lean into conflict and have those really straight conversations for the person that we're working with as well as for ourselves.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:18:57

I love stories about success.

Is there a particular person you've mentored that without guess or giving names that is like, this is your go to story of this is what mentorship and the impact it had on this individual's life.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:19:13

I can think of several. So at the university, for example, my very first university job, you know, I have always. I don't know. I don't know if it's a gift or what, but.

But I love looking at people's strengths and what they can do. And I never look at a title ever.

And I have made some interesting career moves for people saying, hey, have you ever thought about applying for this job? I know it's outside your area, but what I see are some things and they go forth.

But I can name probably easily 6 people from that location alone who are currently university presidents. So to me, to see someone who's starting out young in their career and they've done the work and then they aspire to something else is.

I think that's a real testament to a leader, is when you are not concerned about yourself, but you want to give it away and you want to grow a team, even if you're at a loss. In fact, at our second university, we. We had the reputation for growing team members, and they left us.

I mean, they went to other parts of our company, whether that was corporate or went to another school, a different location. And most people might say, aren't you threatened by that? That's leaving your bench strength low?

No, because there's more people to groom and to grow and develop. And that's the exciting part.

To me, when you're an administration and a leader, it's not so much about the work and the procedures and the strategic plan. It's about investing in the growth of people so they can thrive and they can bring out their best and. And then they can bring out best from others.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:20:45

So for people listening, as I have a lot of different people in my audience who are either in church work or maybe they're in the business world. If you're listening to this today and you say, what's the first step I need to take if I want to build a mentorship culture in my organization?

What would you give them as advice?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:21:03

Well, I'm going to ask the first question. For what end? I mean, I always begin with the end in mind. I know we've heard from Steven. You know that, but I think it's a very powerful place.

So what is the point of this? And then what does this structure look like, you know, and expectations to be able to talk about?

What is the skill set that we're looking for specifically with the mentor? What is a mentee like? Where does that population come from? Is it something they volunteer for is it something that they're trained for?

I do believe strongly, and not just because of the work I do, but I have seen other people out there who are pretty well known who have mentorship programs and then would not have a mentor be part of their program without training and development. It's in. I appreciate people's experience and everything else. But on the other hand, we want our mentors to be confident.

We also want our mentees to also feel that this mentor has something to get them and get. But also mentees have to be prepared to be prepared for the meeting. Like, what is it that you want specifically out of this relationship?

And so, you know, get all that needs to be decided, I think early on. But, you know, cannot hurt. It definitely cannot hurt.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:22:14

If you are looking to train mentors or are you looking for a mentor, are there certain things you need to. You would say these are important characteristics to look for in a mentor.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:22:25

Yes, absolutely. So once someone go, first of all, at this moment, it's going to be about me, right? So. And I can think of two specific examples.

The very first time I had a mentor was when I was 6, 16, and she was my nurture until I was 32 and she passed away. But this woman, now, remember, I am 16, so I do need help because I was in a, what I believe to be my career hospitality.

And she helped pour into me and she did so much more. She helped me personally. She helped me think about, hey, you know, Kim, I know it's never too.

You're never too young to start creating a professional library. For example, I noticed the books behind you.

I have a few books behind me, but, you know, starting to be able to do more than just school, learn more, that's one thing. When I was a university president, I knew that I didn't have everything that I wanted to be successful.

And so I watched a woman, her name's Eileen Fowley Reed, and she worked with our corporation as a consultant. And she could navigate relationships like I have never seen.

She could talk to the CEO one minute and really the janitorial staff or the food service staff next. The way she did it, with such grace and respect was just incredible to me. And I want that.

I want the ability to be able to talk to people, influence situations without looking like it's effort, like it's just who I become. And she poured into me in that way. I had never dealt with boards of directors, and so she helped me navigate that as well.

So again, depending on where you are in your career, you want to look for someone who's already walked that path and who. But specifically, what do you see in them that you want for yourself? Because that's an important conversation.

If I'm meeting you for the very first time and I'm asking you to be my mentor, then I want to say, you know, I would love for you to be my mentor. And here are the reasons why. These are the things that I admire so much about you. And here's what I think it might look like in terms of time.

What I often say to people when they ask that question, if the person says, no, please don't be offended, that means they actually took the time to think about, and they just don't have time. But there'll be somebody else who will say yes to you, and that's what you want, is to have that relationship.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:24:51

When you talk about mentorship, it also reminds me you talk about the fact you're also a coach. How do you distinguish between mentoring somebody and coaching somebody?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:25:00

That's an easy answer for me. So coaching is pure questioning, period. Mentoring is a combination of questioning and also bringing in that personal experience.

So you are giving some examples. You know, in coaching, the person has to actually internalize the question and really pull the answer from within.

And 99% of the time, they know the answer.

But the craft of coaching is really developing those powerful questions so that somebody can actually see it for themselves and then start to say, what's the first step I'm going to take to be able to make a change here? And mentorship is a little bit different.

And I think mentorship today, because things are changing so fast, it doesn't have to be a typical mentorship model that we're used to. It could be peer mentorship, which is really what I'm doing in prisons, or it could be generational mentorship, where it's reversed.

So sometimes a younger person could be mentoring an older person or more experienced, and vice versa. So I think there's a lot of opportunities out there in terms of what is a person looking for and what do they hope to gain?

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:26:08

If you want to be a mentor, is there a program you recommend to be better at it? Because with anything, you're better as you either get some training or some guidance or even some. A contract, so to speak.

Are there some suggestions you have for people who say, I really want to give to someone else the knowledge that I have, the experience that I have, but I want to know how to do that in a way that's helpful? Is there some guidance you say, here, go check out this particular program or read this book to kind of get some background into that.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:26:43

Certainly what I would say is do research. And it depends on the person, what industry, if they're working or they're retired.

I think that team help, there are very many specific resources around internship in each one of those industries or each one of those target audiences, for sure.

I also think that if somebody wanted to do that, you know, certainly let's say someone's retired and they still have a passion for wanting to make a difference and they want that interaction. You know, the local schools definitely need mentors for sure. And they may have their own program.

Certainly in a lot of corporations they have emerging leaders programs. And maybe they haven't even thought about putting a mentorship component into an emerging leaders program.

That would be amazing contribution, lots of things like that. But I wouldn't say one thing.

I think that if they actually just Google or use AI ChatGPT or Copilot or whatever their favorite tool is, I think they're going to find a lot of resources between their companies that specialize in mentorship if they wanted to. Let's say they're inside an organization.

There's some amazing companies out there that can do through technology matching the employee and the mentor inside that company. So, yeah, there's so many choices.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:27:55

I love it. Let's circle back to your book, because I like the way your book ends.

You give all these skills and these tips and traits, but you also give a release planning, a release plan for successful reentry. Kind of walk us through some of the things that you include in that plan for those who are reentering society.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:28:13

So about. Well, first of all, we start with F on finance, and that's when we start to build in this kind of reentry plan, if you will.

So F is finance, but now we're going to work on a real budget so that, you know, to me, this is the dress rehearsal while you're incarcerated six to nine months prior to release, so that your life, you have a plan. About halfway through, we actually start to bring in career development tools.

Everything from filling out applications, starting to think about who can recommend you, creating a functional resume, even down to shaking hands. You know, I could talk to you all day long about professional handshake, but until you actually practice that, you have no idea.

And then we get into the answering those difficult questions. What have you been through the last 15 years? And so we do a lot of practice around that. Then the very end of the book is A list of documents.

So sometimes people forget, oh, I need to get a driver's license, I want my Social Security or I don't have a birth certificate. All of that documentation that you are absolutely going to need.

And you know, do I have a bank account who's going to help me when I get outside, all of that. So it's step by step by step so that they absolutely have a very robust practical plan of congregates.

We have a lot of resources in the back of the book too, because there are agencies to help them whether that happens to be around. Maybe they went in for substance abuse, they need a treatment card benefit continue.

Maybe they didn't have a home church and now they need to start thinking about where's that home church that's going to accept them readily. Another could be the fact is I need food stamps to start out with because I just don't have the money to be able to feed myself. So on and on and on.

There's a lot of resources in the very back end that maybe they aren't thinking about while they're surrounded with cleanse of the taken care of while they're incarcerated. They don't have freedom.

But yeah, of course, when they get up, what they're going to wear, what they're going to do when they go to bed, what way to walk down the corridor, like all of that is taken away in terms of decision making. So now they're going to have to make a decision after decision after decision in order to make sure they don't come back to prison.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:30:23

Awesome. This is a great. It's been a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing. I'd like to ask you my other favorite question.

What do you want your legacy to be?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:30:33

That I made a difference in someone's life.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:30:37

I love that. So in season six, we have a. We have a new thing too. We have a surprise question. Pick a number between 1 and 10 for your surprise question.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:30:47

7. I love this.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:30:52

Oh, here we go. What is your most unusual talent?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:30:58

Instant measurement. Wow, this is a tough one. I think what it is honestly is so I'll use prison of possibilities as the example.

I can take really complex things or they seem daunting and break it down very simply. So whoever I'm working with can truly understand that and I've always been able to do that.

Whether I'm in a corporate board meeting and or I'm writing a book or whether I'm doing one on one mentorship or coaching. I love to be able to make Things simple.

Because one of the things I saw early on in my career is there are some really great people I got to work with who had great reputations, but they almost used that as a cheat you so that you wouldn't learn from them. And I never wanted to be that person.

It's one of the things I learned early on is I want to be a person that includes people, and people want to be around.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:32:02

I love that. That's good. I. I have that gift, too. And especially with Doom as a pastor, taking complex theology and making it simple, that's kind of cool.

It's a neat thing where people go, oh, I get it now. That's one of the. I love hearing that from people. Now I understand.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:32:17

Exactly. And as you said, you're a storyteller and so am I.

And so when you can take that concept to tell a story about a situation or person, they relate to it. Oh, my gosh. I get it.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:32:28

Yeah. Love it. Where can people connect with you? Where can they find your book? From prison of possibilities paving your path?

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:32:35

Definitely on Amazon. Also, I do have a website. It's Dr. Deo Nugent speaks.com and they can find out more about me for sure. And I.

And I'm always posting on LinkedIn every single week, something new and different so they can connect with me on LinkedIn. So it's Kim Se agent.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:32:53

Thank you so much. Well, Dr. Eugen, thank you for your work. And shows that mentorship isn't just about guidance. It's about transformation.

From correctional facilities to boardrooms, you've proven that when we invest in people, we change lives and organizations. Thank you for sharing your insights today. For the listeners who want to learn more or connect with you, they can find her at our website.

And for our audience, thank you for tuning in. If you enjoy this conversation, subscribe and share this episode with someone who believes in the power of mentorship and transformation.

Until next time, keep building bridges and keep leading with purpose. Thanks again, Dr. Nugent.

Dr. Kim Nugent: 00:33:32

Thank you.