Exploring Womanist Bioethics: A Conversation with Dr. Wylan D. Wilson
Dr. Wylan D. Wilson, an esteemed Assistant Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity School, joins us to discuss the crucial intersection of bioethics, gender, and theology, particularly as they relate to the health disparities faced by Black women. Her current research focuses on the role of the Black church in addressing the alarming maternal health crisis in the United States, highlighting the systemic inequities that persist within healthcare. Dr. Wilson's insights illuminate the necessity for a womanist approach to bioethics, which seeks to include diverse voices and experiences, thereby fostering a more equitable healthcare landscape. Throughout our conversation, she emphasizes the importance of listening to marginalized voices, advocating for justice, and creating supportive communities. Join us as we explore these pressing issues and the transformative potential of womanist bioethics in reshaping health outcomes for all.
An engaging discourse on the intersections of theology, medicine, and ethics unfolds through the insights of Dr. Wylan D. Wilson, an esteemed assistant professor at Duke Divinity School, whose expertise encompasses bioethics, gender, and theology. The conversation delves into Dr. Wilson's pivotal research project, which investigates the role of the Black church in addressing racial inequities in Black women's health, particularly in the context of maternal health crises in North Carolina. Through a rich narrative, Dr. Wilson elucidates the historical and systemic factors contributing to health disparities faced by marginalized communities, emphasizing the necessity of a womanist approach to bioethics that seeks to uplift and empower Black women and other women of color. This dialogue not only highlights the critical need for inclusive theological discourse but also advocates for the urgent reformation of healthcare practices to ensure equitable access and treatment for all, particularly in underrepresented demographics. Dr. Wilson's unique perspective invites listeners to consider how faith communities can act as agents of change, fostering a holistic understanding of health that intertwines spiritual, social, and ethical dimensions, ultimately enriching the broader conversation about health and justice in society.
Takeaways:
- Dr. Wylan D. Wilson emphasizes the urgent need to address racial inequities in healthcare, particularly for Black women.
- The intersection of bioethics and womanist theology highlights the importance of inclusive perspectives in addressing health disparities.
- Effective communication and transparency are crucial in personal relationships, as emphasized by Dr. Wilson's father's advice regarding marriage.
- Community engagement and accountability are essential for faith institutions to reclaim their role in healthcare advocacy and support.
Transcript
My guest today, Dr.
Speaker A:Wylan D.
Speaker A:Wilson is Assistant professor of Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity School where she teaches within the Theology, Medicine and Cultural Initiative.
Speaker A:Her teaching and research at the intersection of bioethics, gender and theology.
Speaker A:She is a former teaching faculty at Harvard Medical School Business for Bioethics.
Speaker A:She serves as a Senior Fellow at the Harvard Divinity School center for World Religions and visiting lector at Harvard Divinity School of Women's Studies and Religion Programming.
Speaker A:She is also former Assistant Director of Education at Fort Tuskegee University national center for Bioethics and Research and Health Care, and former faculty member at Tuskegee University College of Agriculture, Environment and Nutrition Science.
Speaker A:She is currently Principal Investigator for the Bioethics and Black Church Addressing Racial Inequities and Black Women's Health in North Carolina Research Project, which examines the potential of the Black church as a resource for addressing the Black maternal health Crisis in the U.S.
Speaker A:Dr.
Speaker A:Wilson earned her Ph.D.
Speaker A:in Religion, Ethics and Society from Emory University.
Speaker A:Her Ms.
Speaker A:Is in Agricultural Resources and Managerial Economics from Cornell University and our MDIB Interdenominational Theological Center.
Speaker A:She is a member of Society for the Study of Black Religion, the American Society for Bioethics and Humanities, the American Academy of Religion, and the center for Reconciliation Advisory Board at duke Divinity School.
Speaker A:Dr.
Speaker A:Wilson's publications include this Is My Body, Faith Communities as Sites for Transfigured Vulnerabilities and Bioenhancement and A Vulnerable Body A Theological Engagement from Baylor.
Speaker A:Her first book, Economic Ethics and the Black Church, and her second book, Womanist Bioethics, Social Justice, Spirituality and the Black Woman's Health, is forthcoming.
Speaker A:We welcome her to the podcast.
Speaker A:Well, Dr.
Speaker A:Wilson, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:How you doing today?
Speaker B:I am fantastic.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Wonderful to be here.
Speaker A:Well, we should have a phenomenal and engaging conversation.
Speaker A:I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker A:This is an important topic as we try to add context and more information to people's lives and always bring.
Speaker A:I'd like to bring value to my audience, so I'm looking forward to what we're going to talk about.
Speaker A:But before we jump into all that fun stuff, my favorite question I like to ask all my guests is, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, I'll say from my father.
Speaker B:Oh my gosh, I love my dad so much.
Speaker B:Nobody's perfect, right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But my dad.
Speaker B:My dad did a beautiful job of just being.
Speaker B:Just being an amazing person.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And a.
Speaker B:And a humane human being.
Speaker B:And he taught us how to treat people and as long with my mom.
Speaker B:But, but the advice that my dad gave me, though, it was right before I got married.
Speaker B:And he told me.
Speaker B:He said, listen, he said, I need you to please don't assume that that man can read your mind.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He said.
Speaker B:He said, whatever you need, please let him know what you.
Speaker B:He said.
Speaker B:Just verbalize it.
Speaker B:Don't.
Speaker B:Don't sit there and be angry saying, oh, well, he didn't.
Speaker B:He didn't do this for me or.
Speaker B:He didn't give me this.
Speaker B:He knows I like this.
Speaker B:He said, no, no, no.
Speaker B:No man can read a woman's mind.
Speaker B:Just be upfront, be honest.
Speaker B:Let him know what you need.
Speaker B:And so that.
Speaker B:That I can actually say that has blessed my marriage because.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And now.
Speaker B:And you have to.
Speaker B:You have to, you know, communicate in a way that is loving, too.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like, you need.
Speaker B:You know, sometimes people can take that and go all the way to the other end.
Speaker B:Hey, I need this, you know, so.
Speaker B:So the whole.
Speaker B:The way we communicate also, compassionately, lovingly, also is.
Speaker B:Is important.
Speaker B:And I've learned that through Mar.
Speaker B:But, yeah, but don't assume that a person can read your mind.
Speaker A:I know that.
Speaker A:That is so true.
Speaker A:I mean, we hope they can read our mind, but we know that's not really true.
Speaker A:I actually test wife all the time.
Speaker A:I was like, can you tell what I'm thinking?
Speaker A:She's like, no, I don't want to guess what you're thinking.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:I'm better off not knowing what is going on right now.
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:That is a wonderful thing that you have.
Speaker B:And, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker B:That's real.
Speaker A:It's so real out there.
Speaker A:Tell us, like, if you could just spend five minutes in my mind, you would know so much more about me.
Speaker A:I'm always.
Speaker A:I've always curious.
Speaker A:Dr.
Speaker A:Wilson, who are some people in your life who served as mentors on your journey?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker B:The first person that pops into my head anytime anyone asks me about a mentor, people start talking about mentors would have to be Ralph Christie.
Speaker B:He was my mentor in graduate school when I was.
Speaker B:This was when I was doing my master's at Cornell University.
Speaker B:And let me tell you, Ralph was just an amazing mentor, amazing blessing to my life.
Speaker B:He was someone who.
Speaker B:He saw me as a whole person, not just as a student who he was going to be able to get publications out of, or, you know, like, he did not.
Speaker B:Because, I mean, let's be real.
Speaker B:Some people do see, they.
Speaker B:They see the opportunity in a person instead of the opportunity for them in a person.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Instead of the.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That person as a whole person.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And he impacted my life as a mentor because he saw me as a whole person and he was concerned about my professional development, but also my spiritual development.
Speaker B:And he really listened and understood kind of where I was as a student, because I was in a field that I did love.
Speaker B:I loved, you know, looking at agricultural economics.
Speaker B:It was beautiful.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But then after my master's, I didn't want to do that beyond the master's level, and he realized that, and he helped me to see, okay, so what could be a good next move for you, you know, what could work for you.
Speaker B:And so he is a part of a lot of things that he taught me is a part of why I mentor students the way I do, you know, trying to.
Speaker B:To see them as whole persons, being compassionate and.
Speaker B:And giving and giving.
Speaker B:Of.
Speaker B:Giving fully of yourself on behalf of another.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Ralph Heck.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's.
Speaker B:That's the one.
Speaker B:And the second one, of course, Alton.
Speaker B:Dr.
Speaker B:Alton Pollard, he was my mentor for my PhD, and this was when I was at emory University.
Speaker B:And Dr.
Speaker B:Pollard, again, just a phenomenal human being.
Speaker B:And he had so much just love like that, that.
Speaker B:The love that he has for people, for the church, you know, I mean, oh, my gosh, I.
Speaker B:I just am super grateful for.
Speaker B:For the two of them and because they have truly shaped me and helped shape me even as a scholar.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's so cool.
Speaker A:I love how people can pour into our lives and have such impact.
Speaker A:It's always kind of my dream is that I can.
Speaker A:People can look back at me and say I was there to help them along their journey.
Speaker A:Not necessarily to, like somebody, like you said, take credit for their work, but just to kind of help bring out the work that God has placed on their heart and the abilities and the talents that God has tapped into them and want to kind of help them unpack all of that.
Speaker A:So that's really amazing.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I want to get into what you talk about, but I want to help you define some terms first, because as we get into this conversation, it's always helpful, I think, to define terms.
Speaker A:So first I want you to kind of define for us what is womanist theology?
Speaker B:Ah, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker B:So womanist theology is not just a theoretical framework, but a really important part of it.
Speaker B:It's also a social change framework.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And it is really.
Speaker B:It's a response to the way that mainstream American theology, Western theology, neglected certain voices and experiences of particularly minoritized individuals and minoritized Women.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Particularly.
Speaker B:So the foremothers of womanist theology were actually students of James Cone.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So these were students of, as we say, the father of black theology.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So students of James Cone.
Speaker B:These women were saying, hey, wait a minute.
Speaker B:You know, black theology is really focusing on the black male experience, and it's not picking up the experience of black women, which really looks, you know, it's layered.
Speaker B:It's class, gender and race.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so those women really and truly focused on, okay, we need a more inclusive theology that can actually, you know, look at the experience, bring into the conversation the experience of black and other women, women of color.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So it expands the conversation in theology to include more experiences.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker A:Now, also, I know people may have heard of black liberation theology, but also kind of give us a good working definition of how you use that term.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So black liberation theology, again, another response to how Western mainstream American neglected these voices and experiences.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so black liberation theology actually made the case that God is on the side of racially and economically subjugated people.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that was very important.
Speaker B:Black liberation theology, I really believe, was such a powerful force because at a time when African Americans at every turn were being told that they.
Speaker B:They couldn't.
Speaker B:Because they were black.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They couldn't be served here because they were black.
Speaker B:They couldn't get the care in a hospital.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B: this country up until, like,: Speaker B:And, you know, hospitals were segregated.
Speaker B:So seeing black folks literally die because they couldn't get care just because of their race, that's wild.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so at this horrible time in our history, we needed black theologians to be able to.
Speaker B:To give us that hope that, yeah, God is not a white racist.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, that was one of the texts.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That was a.
Speaker B:One of the classic texts at that time.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But yeah, to.
Speaker B:To say to black fol.
Speaker B:God truly is on the side of racially and economically subjugated people of color.
Speaker B:For sure.
Speaker A:Thank you for doing that.
Speaker A:Sometimes when we hear the word theology, especially those of us in the church, we immediately go to how to make sure that we aren't being heretical in our understanding and belief.
Speaker A:So I just wanted you to kind of explain that for the context of when we talk about the theology behind things.
Speaker B:So thank you.
Speaker B:Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker B:I appreciate it.
Speaker B:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:So let's tie those two things in.
Speaker A:So tell me why you have this strong desire and your work is so focused on this for a womanist approach to bioethics and how does your background influence what you're focusing on right now?
Speaker B:Yes, yes, yes, yes, for sure.
Speaker B:So let me start.
Speaker B:Let me start with my background, because I think that'll help.
Speaker B:So I was born just 10 years after the desegregation of hospitals, right?
Speaker B:So, so here I am, you know, coming into this world where many of my folk in my family, black folk in my community and in my church.
Speaker B:I was raised in an African American black Baptist church in the south.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:In the rural South.
Speaker B:That, that church, that church rules out.
Speaker B:And, and I just remember hearing horror story, horror stories about black folks interaction, you know, with the health care system in this nation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And that was one of the things that really impacted me, you know, and, and I kept hearing it, right?
Speaker B:Like, it wasn't just in my childhood, but I was like, my goodness.
Speaker B:So then through the 80s, then the 90s, and now in the 21st century, why am I still hearing horror stories?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So that's one thing that really impacted me.
Speaker B:But then another thing also is as I got older and then started working, particularly in the, the rural southern black belt in Alabama, you know, working with churches in that area, I was able to see a little bit clearer because I saw it a bit, you know, growing up, but I could see it very clearly in the black belt in Alabama.
Speaker B:Many, you know, many of the problems that African Americans were having to deal with when it came to health disparities, right.
Speaker B:And access to health care, particularly in rural areas, because many of the women have to travel a one hour or more just to deliver their child.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And the hospitals that are in rural areas, when the budget gets tight, the first thing to go, of course, the obstetrical ward, right.
Speaker B:And maternal mortality is higher in these rural areas.
Speaker B:And a lot of those rural hospitals are the economic drivers in rural areas, Right.
Speaker B: rural hospital closings since: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B: of those were in: Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And rural hospitals are 35% of all hospitals in this nation.
Speaker B:So this.
Speaker B:So that is not a small thing, you know, and so, so when I, when I had a chance to see that, you know, really clearly, that also really drove home to me how important bioethics is, but particularly womanist bioethics for me is something that, that I had to, to create, because bioethics as a field, it was very much focused on white, like European and European male American male experiences.
Speaker B:And so there again, you, you know, leave neglected the experiences of black folk, you know, Latino folk, you know, Asian American.
Speaker B:It just, you know, and so, and definitely women.
Speaker B:So, so that's why this whole notion of womanist bioethics was important.
Speaker B:Because womanism, one really important thing about womanism, it only has a starting point.
Speaker B:With African American and women of color's experience, that's just a starting point.
Speaker B:But the goal of it is the healing, thriving, the flourishing of all of humanity.
Speaker B:So no matter if you're black, white, you know, all folk, Latino, you know, so.
Speaker B:So that's what's important about.
Speaker B:And that's why the framework of womanist bioethics is so important, because of how inclusive it is.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:So tell us about your book.
Speaker A:You have a new book that's coming out, Womanist Bioethics.
Speaker A:Tell us a little bit about that, the framework.
Speaker A:What led you to write that book?
Speaker A:I know you kind of gave us a little bit of the backdrop, but tell us, dig us deeper into that book.
Speaker B:Yeah, so that book came about because, you know, here I am looking at the black women's health crisis in this nation, right?
Speaker B:Black women, half of Black women age 20 or older actually have hypertension.
Speaker B:Heart disease is leading cause of death for them.
Speaker B:They're more likely than white women to be diagnosed with diabetes.
Speaker B:They're understudied in healthcare, underserved, and two to four times more likely than white women to die from pregnancy related complications.
Speaker B:And so that, you know, looking at those, you know, health disparities is, is important because these disparities are not attributed to just, you know, biological problems or the fact that, you know, it's not, not behavioral differences, you know, only, but it really is the historical and pervasive devaluation of minoritized bodies, right?
Speaker B:That is the point there.
Speaker B:And so looking at that, looking at those statistics, it was important for me to actually open a space for conversation about how race, gender, health and spirituality, all of these are important considerations in dealing with, with health disparities.
Speaker B:And what's important also is that, so bioethics as a field.
Speaker B:Because I know people might be saying, okay, but why bioethics?
Speaker B:Well, because as the field, bioethics has so much to do with the doctor patient relationship, right?
Speaker B:It has principles for that, the research and all of that.
Speaker B:So it weighs in on that, that conversation, actually conversations about policies around, you know, health care, beginning of life, end of life.
Speaker B:You see what I'm saying?
Speaker B:So, and then how funds are distributed for biomedical research and who is involved in that research.
Speaker B:Right, so, so see, so, so bioethics has to do with all that.
Speaker B:And so that's why it was important to, to really look and say, okay, wait a minute.
Speaker B:This conversation going on.
Speaker B:Bioethics needs to expand to include more voices and more experiences, particularly of minoritized populations in this country.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:So you gave us a wide overview of what your book addresses.
Speaker A:But you make the argument in your book that mainstream bioethics really privileges particularly white male perspectives.
Speaker A:Can you share an example for the audience so they can kind of drill down on this, of how this exclusively impacts the health care outcomes of say, black women?
Speaker A:And you kind of touched on some of that.
Speaker A:But you know, maybe a more concrete example will kind of really bring home your point.
Speaker B:Yes, yes.
Speaker B:So I have so many examples going through my heads.
Speaker B:I'm like, okay, wait, just pull one while they put one.
Speaker B:So I'll tell you.
Speaker B:Well, okay, let's just do two.
Speaker B:One is with incarcerated black women, we often, we talk about vulnerable populations.
Speaker B:We often really do forget about our incarcerated brothers and sisters and siblings.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Folks who are incarcerated, you know, we, they need care too.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:We don't just throw people away just because they become incarcerated.
Speaker B:And as a matter of fact, particularly when you look at incarceration of women, a lot of women end up in the carceral system because they were in a relationship where it was intimate partner violence.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So there might have been domestic violence in the home and this woman may have been defending herself, ends up, you know, fatally harming the spouse or the boyfriend and boom, you know, incarcerated.
Speaker B:So, so when we look at incarcerated women, particularly black women, there are several things that, that we need to look at.
Speaker B:One, there are laws that are not really being heeded like across the board.
Speaker B:So the law that has to do with not shackling people during pregnancy, particularly during delivery.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But also not putting pregnant women in handcuffs when they are arrested because of course is harm of falling and all that.
Speaker B:And so the law itself is not applied across the board the way it should be.
Speaker B:Some folk don't even know about, you know, those laws in their existence.
Speaker B:And, and they keep coming up these reports of how this law is being violated.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:In, in many places, in many instances.
Speaker B:So that is one thing.
Speaker B:But also there's a story in my book of Robbie hall, and she's a 58 year old grandmother, you know, and I tell her story in the book she's incarcerated.
Speaker B:And, and that, and the way I tell the story is so that you can See the.
Speaker B:The economic injustice that's going on in the carceral system because people are working for pennies because legally they can do that.
Speaker B:Right, sure.
Speaker B:So many of our laws are deeply embedded in these laws from the, you know, 19th century.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And so people.
Speaker B:Then the carceral system can get away with offering slave wages to.
Speaker B:To workers in.
Speaker B:In prison factories.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So I'm telling these stories and story about how.
Speaker B:Then she gets sick.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so, so there's just layers of looking at the kind of care that.
Speaker B:That does or does not happen, you know, in that case, and how.
Speaker B:How these women are very much vulnerable in the health care system, particularly minoritized women, underserved, understudied, you know, and really and truly bearing the burden of health disparities.
Speaker A:Wow, that's really helpful to kind of bring some basis to the story.
Speaker A:We hear so many things and we go, huh, that's just not happening.
Speaker A:But to actually hear those stories kind of brings home and concretizes what we're talking about.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker A:I'm curious.
Speaker A:This is really important work you're doing.
Speaker A:Who are some folks out there that are doing good works on these, on this issue?
Speaker B:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker B:Black Mamas Matters alliance is phenomenal organization.
Speaker B:My goodness, they have blessed me in my work because they use actually a womanist framework in how they structure what they do.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:So they attack the issue of black maternal mortality from the policy level.
Speaker B:They attack it from faith, you know, spiritual level of spirituality, the academy, you know.
Speaker B:So they have this.
Speaker B:And that's why I love the organization, because of the way they do what they.
Speaker B:Trying to bring folk from these various sectors together for training.
Speaker B:Because I've actually attended some of their conferences because they do training so that we can become more aware of the black maternal mortality rates, infant mortality.
Speaker B:So we become aware, but then also become empowered and equipped to address these issues.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, I do appreciate what they do because their philosophy is definitely in line with how.
Speaker B:With how I.
Speaker B:How I believe that we should all be operating.
Speaker B:I just had at the beginning of this.
Speaker B:This year, I had a black maternal health and black church forum here in Durham, North Carolina, and it was really powerful.
Speaker B:We brought in pastors, you know, church members, but then also gynecologists, obstetricians.
Speaker B:We had folk in public health.
Speaker B:We have midwives, doulas.
Speaker B:I'm telling you, I just.
Speaker B:I wanted everybody at the table, right.
Speaker B:Because if we really are serious about addressing health disparities, it takes all of us, you Know, and, and so at that forum we had different panels and, and one of folks favorite panels was the panel where it was just black men.
Speaker B:We raised the voices of black men because, just saying, maternal mortality, right.
Speaker B:We actually just isolate just the woman.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But that woman is embedded, deeply embedded in a communal structure, in a familial structure.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so, so, so really raising up the voices of those who can actually support women during this, during pregnancy and after.
Speaker B:And so, so having a panel to address how is it that African American men can, can support black women.
Speaker B:And it was all brothers.
Speaker B:All the, the brothers came and spoke and it was just actually a blessing and to, because, to hear also what their experience is and trying to support, you know, and so, so that is, that's important.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:That's amazing.
Speaker A:You know, your work is deeply rooted in the black Christian tradition.
Speaker A:How do theological ethics and bioethics intersect as you try and address the systemic health crisis and disparities in our country?
Speaker B:Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker B:So theological ethics and bioethics intersect.
Speaker B:It's a funny thing because they intersect really at the inception of bioethics.
Speaker B:Because, because bioethics, I would tell you, if we look at the origin story of how bioethics came about, you know, as a field, like how it was shaped as a field, it was shaped by a lot of folks who were theologians that they were all, you know, particularly white males.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker B:But theology, these, these were theologians and, and they were folk who were Christian ethicists.
Speaker B:So, so, so, so the, the relationship between the two is very intimate, you know, from the very origins of the field itself.
Speaker B:And, and that's what's so, so important.
Speaker B:So, so me opening this conversation about ext.
Speaker B:Expanding bioethics beyond just one singular voice, one singular perspective, that conversation is, is really, really important because I'm actually asking bioethics, you know, come back home, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:So come back to who, to who, who you are, who you've been, you know, always having this, this, this conversation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:With the significance of our faith and our faith life and how that does have implications.
Speaker B:It has implications, as we all know, with policy.
Speaker B:Because we've seen the fights.
Speaker B:We've seen the policy fights.
Speaker B:Right, but, but in my book, what's really important is.
Speaker B:I am, am also saying, though.
Speaker B:But it has implications also for us as, as, as, as individuals.
Speaker B:Because, yes, we have to look at the institutional level, and I do talk about that in my book.
Speaker B:So looking at, you know, healthcare institutions.
Speaker B:Right, and what can be done there.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I definitely talk about that.
Speaker B:But then I also talk about this kind of like this biblical understanding of justice, which is really powerful.
Speaker B:And this is, is very much in line with this womanist understanding of justice.
Speaker B:It understands justice to be centered in the fidelity to the demands of relationship.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker B:Our faithfulness to the demands of our relationship with one another, with environment, with creation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because I mean, my goodness, if we don't start taking care of this very earth that supports us in so many ways and nourishes us, we are all truly, truly in trouble.
Speaker B:But also the relationship to, to God.
Speaker B:And, and so, so in that, you know, I talk about how it is.
Speaker B:So it's important for us to, to definitely think about being and doing, you know, what kind of persons do we want to be?
Speaker B:You know, how do we want to be?
Speaker B:How do we want to show up for each other every day?
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker A:I love to give my audience actionable steps because this problem you've laid out is an enormous problem.
Speaker A:But we need to figure out ways to begin to dismantle some of the hindrances that are there.
Speaker A:So as you think about what you've, what you're working on here, what are some of, some of the structures we can dismantle that cause some of the systemic problems that we see in the healthcare system?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, so there are certain, there are several things actually that, that can be done at various levels.
Speaker B:And so one of the things at the level of, you know, kind of institutions, medical facilities, you know, what can hospitals do, for instance?
Speaker B:First and foremost, we all need a truth telling.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:I mean, let's just be real because until we are honest about what has happened in our history and then how we are seeing reverberations of that and, and iterations of that, because we are really like in this historical moment in this nation, we are seeing iterations of the implicit bias and racism and all of that and how it really pervades so much of our lives and our institutions.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so we need truth telling and we need to own up to who we are as a nation.
Speaker B:Because sometimes, I know it's very easy for people to say, oh, no, no, no.
Speaker B:They look at kind of racist policies and, and practices.
Speaker B:Oh, well, that's not who we are.
Speaker B:No, I know that's who we are.
Speaker B:Let's be real, let's tell the truth about who we are.
Speaker B:And just because that is the truth of who we are, it's part of that truth of who we are, it doesn't mean that's who we have to.
Speaker B:That we.
Speaker B:We have.
Speaker B:But to be a prisoner of that and stay in that prison of, of that, you know, past.
Speaker B:No, we can, we can actually, like you said, break free.
Speaker B:We can take steps to, to dismantle.
Speaker B:And it takes that.
Speaker B:It takes imagination to do that.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:We have to.
Speaker B:And that's where our.
Speaker B:I call them artists as theologians, artists as prophets.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So one really support our, Our artists support those.
Speaker B:There are so many young people who.
Speaker B:They're.
Speaker B:They're using their talents, their voices, their bodies, whether they're sculptures or painters, to protest the health disparities and racism and things that they see around them.
Speaker B:And so just being able to support them.
Speaker B:I really try to support our young people because art truly is a way, one of keeping people sane.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And it allows us to express ourselves, but it also allows us to open our minds and imagine another world and another way of being.
Speaker B:And that's significant.
Speaker B:But then also holding our, our healthcare institutions accountable.
Speaker B:Because one of the things that healthcare institutions can do is they can have universal screenings for social determinants of health.
Speaker B:So when, when I go into.
Speaker B:I love going into my doctor's office, my primary care provider, right, for my little annual checkups, make sure everything's okay.
Speaker B:And so on the intake form, they ask me these questions about, do you have trouble with, did you have trouble with transportation, with getting here?
Speaker B:Do you continually have transportation issues?
Speaker B:Were you able to eat a good meal?
Speaker B:Do you have trouble feeding yourself and your family?
Speaker B:And I was like, okay, go.
Speaker B:This is good, because that's what we need, right?
Speaker B:We need facilities to come alongside and partner with, with community institutions, community organizations who can help folk with food insecurity and with, you know, transportation issues.
Speaker B:You know, all these social determinants of health things that.
Speaker B:Because it's not just, you know, going to the.
Speaker B:Just going to the doctor.
Speaker B:I wish that were the only thing that would keep us healthy.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But no, it's not.
Speaker B:It is the doctor.
Speaker B:It is things going on in our environment, in our communities.
Speaker B:It's access, right?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So yes, so health care institutions helping to, you know, refer.
Speaker B:When you find out that there are some issues with transportation or food insecurity, you can have referrals available of.
Speaker B:Okay, well, this is where you can go in the community and get help for this and even mental health, right?
Speaker B:One of the things that I appreciate that's going on at the church that I'm attending here, it's really a blessing.
Speaker B:We're trying to get a mental health and mental wellness Ministry up and running.
Speaker B:Because a lot of times in the church, there are a lot of things that are taboo and that we don't like to talk about, but mental health, particularly in an African American community, is something that has been taboo.
Speaker B:And so we're trying to address that and talk about it in the pulpit, talk about it out of the pulpit, have workshops, things like that, so that people can start understanding.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that's something I can talk about and then not be ashamed to get help for.
Speaker B:And, you know, and including the moral wisdom that that is in our communities that comes from, like, midwives and doulas.
Speaker B:So there are things that faith communities and just regular folk can do to support our midwives and birthing doulas, because these are.
Speaker B:These are folk who are supporting the thriving of babies and mamas, right?
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:So there's just so much that we can do to really.
Speaker B:To really address this crisis.
Speaker B:And also lastly, listening to black women, listening to women of color, listen to.
Speaker B:To women, women in general, when they tell you something's wrong with their.
Speaker B:Their body or they feel something off, just taking it seriously, right?
Speaker B:That's one of the.
Speaker B:The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the cdc, they actually had a campaign called Hear her, the national campaign.
Speaker B:And the reason why they had that campaign is because folk are not taking women seriously.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:So that's a big thing that we can do is just take women seriously and listen.
Speaker B:Yeah, listen to them.
Speaker B:Yeah, believe and believe them.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:That was very helpful.
Speaker A:Now I'm going to ask you a fun question.
Speaker B:All right?
Speaker B:Now, I love fun questions.
Speaker A:So if you had a.
Speaker A:Hospitals, churches and communities all got together in a room to discuss human health care reform, who's getting into argument first?
Speaker B:Let me tell you.
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker B:I would say, because I know we talked about.
Speaker B:We had hospitals, communities, right?
Speaker B:And churches.
Speaker B:Let me tell you, I.
Speaker B:I think who would get into the argument first?
Speaker B:I think it would be the community, with the community itself, right?
Speaker B:Because what we.
Speaker B:What we.
Speaker B:What we sometimes forget is just in the community, there are so many different understandings about what we owe one another, right?
Speaker B:So some people don't think they owe their neighbor anything, you know, And.
Speaker B:And so some folk.
Speaker B:And so then not only that about what we owe one another, but then just.
Speaker B:Just this notion of agreeing on what is right, what is good.
Speaker B:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:So some people would say, oh, my goodness, we need universal healthcare.
Speaker B:Other people would, no, no, no, no, that's not right.
Speaker B:Nor is that good.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:No, everybody shouldn't have a right to that.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, just all the fights right there.
Speaker B:So just in the community, not even getting to the level of community, arguing with church, community arguing with hospital, but just in the community itself.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think it's interesting because as I've served in underserved communities, you just hit on a point.
Speaker A:It's like, where do we even start?
Speaker A:Is the starting point.
Speaker A:Better health care is the starting point.
Speaker A:Better food options is the starting place?
Speaker A:Security when you throw their churches in, now that the churches.
Speaker A:Unfortunately, I know my experience as a pastor, we have abdicated the care for the community to the government.
Speaker A:We can't even really get an argument and say, well, here's what we can provide, because we don't provide a whole lot.
Speaker A:Besides, our food pantries open once every two weeks.
Speaker A:So you kind of hope as a church that they don't look at you and go, why aren't you doing more?
Speaker A:So you kind of stay in the back and just be quiet.
Speaker A:It's like pointing somebody else.
Speaker A:You kind of.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's a fascinating conversation as to what does the community.
Speaker A:Because so much has been taken from so many of those communities.
Speaker A:I mean, I just.
Speaker A:When I was in Chicago, when they started closing down, like the Walgreens and the black community, and you had to go, you know, 20 miles to go get your prescriptions filled.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But it closed down because there was crime in the Walgreens, and people kept breaking in and stealing it.
Speaker A:So it's like there's so many pieces to that conversation that we don't even get to.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, you're right.
Speaker B:It's a lot of pieces to that.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I want to go back to what you were saying about with the churches.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Kind of almost abdicating that, the responsibilities of care to the community.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And here's what's so powerful about that.
Speaker B:What's really powerful is that we have such a strong legacy of care, particularly in the black church.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So we need to come back home, right?
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We especially now in this time where we are now under an administration that is, you know, making so many cuts and, you know, so many changes that really will put people in a position of, my goodness, the only places they're going to have to turn to will be these community.
Speaker B:These faith communities and the smaller community organizations that.
Speaker B:That still have enough funding.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because with funding cuts, you know, a lot of things are being.
Speaker B:Are being in j.
Speaker B:Are in jeopardy now of existence.
Speaker B:A lot of these caring Kinds of organizations.
Speaker B:So, so my.
Speaker B:I would say my clarion call, particularly for African American churches, is to come back to that legacy of care.
Speaker B:Because just like, you know, what we're doing at my church to.
Speaker B:To really try to.
Speaker B:To get this ministry, you know, health care and.
Speaker B:And health.
Speaker B:Health and wellness ministries going.
Speaker B:We have got to do that because we are our answer, right?
Speaker B:We are all we've got.
Speaker B:I mean, let's be real.
Speaker B:We have all we are all we've got.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So we really do need to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To get back to those strategies, because black churches helped to build the first.
Speaker B:Some of the first black hospitals when.
Speaker B:When black folk were locked out of the public health care system.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Locked out of those systems because of segregation.
Speaker B:It was black church.
Speaker B:Those black church mothers, you know, raising that money, you know, some of them.
Speaker B:And some of them even started nursing schools and.
Speaker B:And black medical schools because.
Speaker B:Because not only were locked out of hospitals, we were also locked out of the training facilities and the.
Speaker B:The medical schools and nursing schools.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that's why I want people really to, you know, dig.
Speaker B:Just dig in a little bit.
Speaker B:Dig into that history of.
Speaker B:Of black churches and this really beautiful, powerful legacy of care.
Speaker B:And I have it in my book.
Speaker B:You can.
Speaker B:You can.
Speaker B:You can dig in there.
Speaker B:It'll be a good start for you to dig in there because.
Speaker B:Because I know.
Speaker B:I know we can do it.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If we built.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If we built institutions like, you know, now what is Tuskegee University, you know, built from a person literally formerly enslaved.
Speaker B:I mean, come on now.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:And all.
Speaker B:All that he had to work with in building that institution were other formerly enslaved persons, which meant they had pennies, and probably not even pennies.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so, so, so, so if.
Speaker B:If we could literally build institutions with nothing, all the money and education and giftedness that.
Speaker B:That we have among us now in.
Speaker B:In the black church and in African American communities, I.
Speaker B:I tell you, we have no excuse, you know?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:We know we have no excuse.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We can.
Speaker B:We can build a.
Speaker B:We can build on a phenomenal legacy of care.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker A:So I gotta ask you this question, looking forward, what impact do you hope the woman is.
Speaker A:Bioethics will have on the field of bioethics and human and healthcare as a whole?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So my, My.
Speaker B:My hope is that it'll have impacted at several levels.
Speaker B:The first level is.
Speaker B:I'm hoping it has impact.
Speaker B:Just added like a individual level.
Speaker B:Because one thing that people who are in caring professions, whether they are pastors or doctors, nurses, when you're in a caring profession, you realize that you are truly a wounded healer, right?
Speaker B:Many times we're trying to heal for help, help other folk heal.
Speaker B:But, shoot, we hobbling around with our own pains, hobbling around with our own past, you know, hurts, past trauma that still haunts us every day.
Speaker B:And so we ourselves need healing as we are working for the care and in.
Speaker B:In terms of health care, cure of others, and as we are journeying with others on their path to healing, we ourselves need that.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:So my.
Speaker B:My absolute hope is that we do the both.
Speaker B:And we are.
Speaker B:We are working for justice, working for the thriving of our communities and thriving and flourishing of others as we also attend to the healing that needs to go on in our own lives.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I'm gonna tell you, I've really been trying to be more intentional about that.
Speaker B:So I've been waking up and I've been saying, all right, you know, like, there's.
Speaker B:There's several things that I want to just think about.
Speaker B:First thing first, how do I want to show up in this world today?
Speaker B:Before I step foot out of this house, I need to figure out what.
Speaker B:And what way do I want to show up?
Speaker B:1.
Speaker B:I know I want to be a healing presence.
Speaker B:I know I want to embody love.
Speaker B:I know, you know, like, there are certain things.
Speaker B:And so in order to do that, then that means I need to be, you know, I need to be showing up my prayer life.
Speaker B:I need to be meditating on, you know, what is love?
Speaker B:It's honoring others.
Speaker B:It's, you know, having mercy.
Speaker B:It's having compassion.
Speaker B:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:Like, what is it practically?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that's what I'm hoping is that we do these, like, practical things every day in our own life.
Speaker B:That doesn't take much.
Speaker B:You know, it just takes a little bit of us thinking through.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:What I.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:How do I want to be today?
Speaker B:This being right.
Speaker B:In addition to the doing.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But I also think that then we also need to, at the broader level, hold our institutions accountable.
Speaker B:So, like our churches, right.
Speaker B:We need to be honest in the church about how we neglect.
Speaker B:We neglect a lot of issues.
Speaker B:We don't just neglect mental health.
Speaker B:We neglect issues like pregnancy, birth.
Speaker B:You know, like, we.
Speaker B:We don't really.
Speaker B:We don't talk about how is it that we can be.
Speaker B:We can facilitate the thriving in the health of mothers, of pregnant women in our congregations, you know, beyond.
Speaker B:Beyond getting in fights because we get in so many religious fights over.
Speaker B:And I'm not saying it's not important, but we get in fights over politicized issues.
Speaker B:But sometimes that also can compromise our actions on behalf of the flourishing of human beings right there in our congregations and in our broader community.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so I think that is so important to hold ourselves accountable for bad theology.
Speaker B:Like, let's not pretend that doesn't exist, right?
Speaker B:Bad theology that, that says it's okay to keep, you know, certain people subjugated, right?
Speaker B:Like if it's some, something, some theology, say, oh, women, you know, should be subjugated, you know, so, so yeah, we really need to, we need to just start being honest with ourselves and holding ourselves accountable in our faith communities and then in our healthcare system.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Holding clinicians accountable to not.
Speaker B:Well, to just be aware of their own implicit bias and be aware of not, not say, oh, no, racism.
Speaker B:There's no racism here.
Speaker B:Well, wait, let's, let's, let's, let's first see, because public health institutions in this nation, right, in the cdc, these institutions are clear that racism is a root cause, right?
Speaker B:It is a root cause of health disparities, you know, and the suffering.
Speaker B:Because since enslavement, we have normalized black suffering and black misery in this country.
Speaker B:We've normalized it.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's powerful.
Speaker A:Before we close this out and it's been a great conversation, I love to ask my guest this other question.
Speaker A:It's a tail end of the first question.
Speaker A:What do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker B:Wow, that's a beautiful.
Speaker B:Oh, that's a beautiful question.
Speaker B:I would say, honestly, first thing that comes to my mind, love.
Speaker B:And, and, and I know, you know, people, there's so much kind of almost negative things attached to love, right?
Speaker B:Because people like, ah, people abuse folk and they say that it's love, you know, and, and love is, you know, superficial and all this in the minds of, of, of a lot of folk.
Speaker B:But I mean, absolutely trying to live into what it means to actually embrace one another as, you know, how when you have someone that you're in a relationship with, right.
Speaker B:Particularly at the very beginnings when you just, oh, you can't take your eyes off the person.
Speaker B:You're just staring into one another's eyes.
Speaker B:That's what I want people to do with one another and with communities and with folk who are different from them.
Speaker B:If we can fall in love with each other, right.
Speaker B:In a way that says, you matter so much to me that I want to ensure that you have the best of what life has to offer.
Speaker B:You have the best of health care, you have the best of, of just what it takes for you to thrive as a human being.
Speaker B:My God.
Speaker B:I want, I, I really do want that.
Speaker B:I want us to love each other so much that even if we don't disagree with each other, that we can still say, but you know what?
Speaker B:I love you.
Speaker B:We're going to get through this.
Speaker B:We're going to work through this.
Speaker B:I'm going to find out how, how I can still help you and still, you know, we still be in relationship with one another that allows you to flourish and that I'm not.
Speaker B:Just because I don't agree with you, you know, ideologically and just because we don't have the same politics that.
Speaker B:Oh, I just can't talk to you.
Speaker B:Oh, you.
Speaker B:Oh, I just, you know, I really want that for, for, for, for people, for all of us to, to practice this thing called love, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In a real way.
Speaker A:That's powerful.
Speaker A:Where can listeners find your book Women is by ethics and connect with you on social media?
Speaker B:Fantastic.
Speaker B:Yes, you can find the book, of course on Amazon, but also on barnes and noble.com that bookseller, but then also on my website, y lyndwilson.com and when you go to my website, you also see other resources there that you know, to deal with, you know, mental health and, and health and well being as well, of minoritized communities.
Speaker B:So those are a few ways.
Speaker B:I'm also on Instagram and on LinkedIn as well.
Speaker B:Oh, wy.
Speaker B:Lynn D.
Speaker B:Wilson.
Speaker A:Well, Wylan, thank you so much for providing such great conversation and context and we dug deep into a really important topic.
Speaker A:So thank you for your time and being an awesome guest on my podcast.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker B:I just, I'm so grateful.
