Doing the Work: Transforming Schools for Every Student

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:01:09

Welcome to Becoming Bridge Builders podcast where we explore stories and strategies that connect people, ideas and communities. I am your host, Keith Haney, and today we're diving into one of the most pressing conversations in education, equity, leadership and system change.

Our guests today are Ann Ishimura from the University of Washington and Dakota Irby from University of Illinois Chicago, two leading education researchers and authors of the forthcoming book Doing the Work of Equity Leadership for Justice and System Change.

This book offers a fresh perspective on equity in public schools, focusing on the daily efforts of school leaders and teachers to serve all students amid growing resistance to DEI initiatives and accusations of promoting woke education.

Drawing on nearly a decade of research and partnerships with educators nationwide, Ann and Dakota to examine how equity focused practices have evolved a persistent despite restrictive policies and anti DEI rhetoric, today we will unpack what it really means to lead for justice and system change in today's culture. Welcome you both to the show.

Decoteau Irby: 00:02:13

Thank you so much.

Ann Ishimura: 00:02:15

Thanks for having us.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:02:16

Good to have you on. I'm gonna ask you both my favorite question. We're gonna dive into your book a little bit, but. And you can pick who goes first.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Decoteau Irby: 00:02:28

I can go first, I think the. Which is a hard one for me, but you can't want something or. How was it put? Don't want something for someone more than they want it for their self.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:02:42

Okay. Yeah.

Ann Ishimura: 00:02:45

That'S a really good one. You know, I think really just advice about sort of like what you can control and what. And what's out of your control.

Really just stay focused on what it is that you can control.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:02:59

I like that. So I'm curious. You guys wrote this book and, you know, DEI and all the stuff that we're talking about is right now probably very controversial.

I've had many podcasts about it, trying to explain to people, you know, looking at both sides of it and get a perspective on it. What inspired you guys to write this book and why now?

Ann Ishimura: 00:03:24

Well, so we actually started the work that went into this book almost 10 years ago. So I think, you know, for me personally, I'm Japanese American, and my whole upbringing was sort of a way of sort of understanding.

I was learning about things that from my own family and community that I didn't learn in school. So that was like, from the very time I was very young, a sense that there was a kind of disconnect between especially things around history. Right.

So I was. I'm the daughter and granddaughter of folks who were incarcerated during World War II. And we didn't learn about that in school.

And so it became a kind of entry point for me to really be focused on inequities, not just in school, but in society more largely. And you know, you asked about advice. The other thing that I was taught growing up was you leave the place better than you. You found it.

And so really trying to, you know, the, the genesis of this work, yes, it was 10 years ago, but also, and I think this is true for both of us, really comes out of who we are as people, as members of families and communities that have historically and you know, many times continuing to be marginalized or minoritized and then understanding that as a part of a much broader system in which a great number of young people, their opportunities and their learning and their growth and their potential is not fully tapped in the school systems that we have.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:05:05

Great. Dakota.

Decoteau Irby: 00:05:06

Yeah, I'll just add to that.

I'm a father of two children, school age children, and I always tell people that I would like to, in one of the world's most well resourced countries, be able to pick up and move to anywhere in this country and know that I can send my children to a school there and they would get everything that they need that affirms them, that helps them understand their humanity and really brings their fullest potential out of them.

So a lot of my interest in equity in school stems from that and also my experiences working with young people who, many of whom have did all of the, you know, the right things, you know, they go to the right classes, they put in the effort, and the system still doesn't necessarily work out the way that it should have based on what people say, you know, do A, B, C, D. And this is the outcome you get. And for too many people, far too many families and communities, it doesn't work that way.

So specifically about the book, we were interested in understanding the experiences, the practices and the ways that the people who have formal positions to make schools more equitable. We were interested in what they were up to.

We started seeing people in these equity leadership positions in districts shortly after Trayvon Martin was killed and the Obama administration's Department of Education administered a Dear Colleague letter letting school districts know they should be concerned with disproportionality and discipline, which led to a conversation about disproportionality in special education, misdiagnosis under diagnosis, and all of these different kinds of disparities. And so we were interested in what the people who were formerly responsible for leading this work were actually doing on a day to day Basis.

And that led us to the research project that we report on in this book.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:07:07

Awesome. Your title, I love your title. It's emphasizing doing the work. Why action, rather than just awareness, is so critical to the work you do.

So explain a little bit about the Thailand idea of doing the work. Yeah.

Ann Ishimura: 00:07:22

This is a phrase that we heard those educators use over and over again, talking about doing the work.

And you kind of prefaced the question with exactly what we are after there is that there's a lot of things about the sort of commitments that people have and their beliefs and their mindsets. And we really wanted to focus on, well, what does it look like for the folks who are within these systems to actually make change?

And how do we do that in ways.

You know, there's a chapter in there that Dakota wrote with Maurice Sweeney about sort of going deeper into that kind of change than just putting out fires.

Cause I think a lot of times, especially in the beginning of those times when we had these folks charged with leading equity, a lot of the expectation was that they would put out fires. And instead it was about really, how do we change the way that we go about everyday work, how we.

The policies that are shaping our work, the data that we use to have conversations, the ways that we're interacting with people and how we think about improvement, and how do we change those things so that the fires aren't popping up all over the place, that we're actually changing the underlying structures.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:08:42

Anything you want to add, Dakota?

Decoteau Irby: 00:08:44

No. I mean, that pretty much covers it. Yep. Yep. I think, you know, the emphasis on practice and what people were doing was the most important thing.

So that's why we wanted to focus on doing. And one thing I will say is that it was people make this clear distinction.

And when you go into a school or to a district, there's a clear distinction that people make between who says they're doing the work and who's actually doing the work. And so that's why people was like, well, you know, those of us who are actually doing the work.

And so that's why we put the emphasis in the title is that the folks that we had the fortune of, you know, participating in our research project, they were very clear that there's a distinction that focuses on doing an action that's different from talk and from surface level commitments to making schools better places for children who need it the most.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:09:38

So your book uses a framework of mornings, middays, and evenings to describe the cynical nature of equity leadership. Can you unpack what that metaphor means for us?

Ann Ishimura: 00:09:50

Yeah.

Decoteau Irby: 00:09:50

So I'll pick. Yeah. So basically, what it speaks to is kind of two things. First, this broader historical trajectory for change to operate into moving cycles. Right.

And so we see these periods of progress, and we see these periods where things don't feel as progressive. We argue in the book that we're in one of those right now where we feel like we're going backwards after we've made some steps forward.

And we could think about this historically, you know, Reconstruction and then the end of Reconstruction. Right. Reconstruction period felt very progressive. Civil rights movement felt very progressive.

Black power movement felt very progressive and was very progressive.

And then we went into the Reagan years where we encountered a wave of kind of conservatism that took us away from kind of the progressive ideals that many of the people who we look to as leaders and icons, you know, espoused. So taking that idea, we also found in the book that the leadership practices happen in sort of a cycle.

think of as, you know, around: 2014

We saw the million hoodies movement.

So we saw this swelling of commitment to making society better and fairer for people who, especially presidents, had not really acknowledged as being on the receiving end of injustices. So Barack Obama acknowledged that his department of. During his second term, he did a lot and started to speak more about issues of justice.

And so that led us into this first wave that we call mornings.

And that morning was really a period where people did things like write policies, they framed issues, they started thinking about data in different ways.

And pretty soon after that period, if we think about when George Floyd was killed, it kind of ushered us into a period where there was a rapid proliferation of people and districts investing in this particular kind of work. So we saw resources, we saw the formation of equity offices.

We saw people not only being specialists, but now being appointed to the superintendent's cabinet. So there was an influx of resources and commitment to racial equity. And then in that time, people started to experience pushback.

Districts started to experience pushback.

This came in the form of book bans, attacks on critical race theory, attacks on dei, organized efforts to take over school boards, all of these different sorts of things.

And for the people who were leading the work, you know, personal attacks and personal threats, that midday work where people were open and kind of, you know, really pushing for equity in schools eventually gave way to what we call evening work.

And in the evenings, people started to think about solidarity and coalitions and really like working across different kinds of groups, whether that's geographic boundaries, so multiple districts coming together, people within districts working together to make sure that they were able to sustain the work that started in spite of all of the kind of outright attacks and microaggressions that they were experiencing.

And then we argue at the very end of the book that, you know, at the beginning we had these awakenings, and at the end, we end the book, the final chapter, with the idea of dreaming.

And the dreaming is about both resting and dreaming, but also about being in community with people having conversations, communicating, strategizing and dreaming about what schools can actually look like for young people. Because we know that if we think about the cyclical process, that a new morning is eventually going to come.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:13:49

I've served in mostly urban areas with my ministry, so I started out in Detroit, Michigan, then went to St. Louis, Missouri, inner city. Then I was in Milwaukee, and then I was in Chicago for a little while.

What I don't think people sometimes understand is all educational systems are not the same. They don't all have the same resources.

And so sometimes the argument that I hear back is if you just work hard, it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can achieve. How do you deal with some of the cause?

I don't think people understand sometimes that there really is a difference in the quality of the education in the system.

So how do you push back when people say everything is all right, Stop pointing out the, you know, the disparities and just live, flourish where you're planted. I hear that a lot, you know, just bloom where you're planted. How do you respond to that kind of a criticism?

Ann Ishimura: 00:14:50

So, you know, I think one of the things that is really clear is you can look at different. You can look at the. The kind of resources that schools have in different communities, and they're very different resources that are available.

And sometimes that's just pure, purely the money that goes into the system. Other times it's the teachers, the staff, you know, the reflection of the community that are amongst the educators.

It could be buildings and other materials. And then you can also look sort of like every step of the way at the kind of disparities that you see.

So if you just take something like, say, like opportunities for advanced learning ap those kinds of things, those are only available in some places, and then you can Also see it in the outcomes, right? So, like, there's really disparate outcomes in terms of things like graduation and, you know, the ability to go on to post secondary.

So we see those all across the way, everywhere from the things that are going into education, the opportunities that young people have when they're in school, the discipline that's really disproportionate for black and some other students of color. And then also in the outcomes are very disparate.

So we have to really think about the ways that the policies and the everyday practices and relationships and the opportunities are very different, like you said, in very different places. And I think a lot of people are just building from their own experience.

But we have the benefit of, you know, like you seeing into a number of different contexts and in other different geographies and then also understanding, seeing the research, that there are very different contexts and even a one context is there are different opportunities for if you are a black student or indigenous student or Latino student, there are different opportunities even in the same.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:17:14

I want to kind of also. Poor neighbor. Go ahead.

Hold on a second, because I want to jump in because I think what I think about when we talk about this conversation, people don't always get it. Things like the term social, emotional learning. People have used that as a bad term. But when you put that in the context of.

Imagine a kid coming from a depressed neighborhood where he's coming out of a situation where there is conflict in the home, mom and dad are fighting, or maybe dad's in prison or whatever the situation may be, getting that child prepared to learn may take more than if he's coming from a stable home in a different neighborhood in different contexts. We don't always understand that that is not that you're doing something different.

I mean, but to get to the point of learning requires more for some students than it does for others. Go ahead, Dakota. I didn't want to interrupt you, but.

Decoteau Irby: 00:18:12

Yeah, no, that's exactly what I was going to say. I was going to just say that really there's the material resources, right?

That we're talking about finances and that sort of thing, but there's this set of psychological and social emotional resources that are really critical that can produce a set of outcomes. If you go to.

If you put a child in a school where everybody is expected and does actually go to college, that vastly increases the likelihood that that child, whether they're. Whatever kind of home they're in, it vastly increases the likelihood that they're going to cut a college.

Conversely, if a child Comes from a household with two college educated parents who are middle class, and you send that child to a school where college is not valued, people are not putting an emphasis on college going. You reduce the likelihood that that child is actually going to graduate, go to college, and persist through college.

So these systems have particular kinds of cultures that have a set of material resources, but there's also psychological resources that go into this.

And the other part that I always like to tell people is that, you know, education and schooling is about the content and about the knowledge, but it's also about relationships.

And a lot of times, you know, if students don't go to the right school where they don't have a counselor who has a relationship, or teachers who have relationships and not only have them, but are willing to broker relationships on behalf of students, those students don't get the same benefit as a student that's at a school where people have those connections and are willing to make those connections on their behalf.

So we see, for example, sometimes black fraternities and sororities kind of fill in a gap to do some of that kind of stuff in a lot of schools, but they're on the periphery. Nothing beats having adults in a school where everybody expects and acts like and behaves as though every child is supposed to go to college.

Those are some of the differences. I think that those are the kind of things that are important.

And there are some students who can get that again from maybe their religious or church community. Right. A lot of churches have scholarships and they talk about, you know, college going.

So if a young person or family doesn't have access to that ongoing, persistent, overwhelming expectation and conversation, as well as the abundant kind of actions and behaviors that are pushing them at direct that direction, then it, it decreases the likelihood that they'll get that kind of.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:20:43

So we just touched on some of the backstories that we don't talk about. When we talk about the work that is going on and why this work is important.

How do you respond to critics who say the work that you're doing is just political and not necessary?

Decoteau Irby: 00:21:01

Well, you want to go ahead.

Ann Ishimura: 00:21:04

I mean, go ahead, go ahead, get started.

Decoteau Irby: 00:21:06

It is political. It is political.

So, you know, because I mean, if we think about, like political being about who gets, who has access to the power to make decisions or shape decision making. Right. That's what politics ultimately is about.

And that power can come in the form of money, it can come in the form of connections, it can come in the form of knowledge and information. So it is political. Right.

The Question of whether it's necessary, I think depends on one's ideology in terms of what they think about as an equitable society. I don't think that we have. We don't live in a meritocracy.

And because we don't live in a meritocracy where your efforts are going to give you automatically, give you a certain set of results, then we need to think about the other kind of forms of power to help people get results that would make society look more equitable. So I think that it is a political thing.

And these people in the book realized that they were working in highly political, racial, political context as they were doing this work, and they chose to do it anyway.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:22:09

Go ahead, Ann. I think you had something you wanted to add.

Ann Ishimura: 00:22:11

Yeah, I would. Yeah, yeah, I just. No, I would totally agree with that.

I think that it's politicized maybe is one of the things that I would kind of distinguish from political. That it's political. All education is political.

And when we try to pretend it's not, then we're defaulting to the sort of dominant status quo where some people have opportunities and access to education and to well being and to opportunity and some people do not. And so that's. Yeah, that's political. If you decide that you think everyone should have access to those things. Right. So.

And at the same time, I think a lot of these things have been politicized at a level that is we're not actually talking about the work, we're not actually talking about actual young people or actual teachers in classrooms. It becomes solely ideological.

And I think that's part of why we really are trying to push people to really think about the young people themselves and what's actually happening on a daily basis when people are making decisions, things like where do they go to the bathroom, what are they going to study? Do they have tutoring or not? Do they have, you know, can they take an honors class or an AP's class? Do.

Does the counselor tell them that you're not college material or are they working to actually enable all of the possibilities that should be at their feet? Yeah, so I think, you know, there is a kind of politicized dynamic that is going on.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:23:54

I know Dakota has a hard stop today and I want to honor that. I would like to have you guys back on again because I think we just scratched on the surface of this conversation.

But as we kind of wrap up today, where can people find your book and where can they connect with both of you to learn more about the work that you're doing.

Decoteau Irby: 00:24:14

Yeah, so our book is available on pretty much all online retailers. You can get it at Teachers College Press or if you have Amazon, you can go on Amazon and do a one click shop. Again.

The name of the book is Doing the Work of Equity Leadership for Justice and Systems Change and people can find me at my website, dakotaerby.com and you.

Ann Ishimura: 00:24:36

Can find me at annyshimaru.com, or also you can find the book through Bookshop.

Rev. Dr. B. Keith Haney: 00:24:43

Well Anne and Dakota, thank you for sharing your insights for this important work that you're doing to advance equity and justice in education for our listeners. If you want to learn more about their forthcoming book, you can look at Doing the Work of Equity and Leadership for justice and System Change.

I know links that will be in the show notes below. As always, thank you for tuning in to Becoming Bridge Builders Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, share, subscribe and leave a review for us.

Until next time, keep building bridges that connect and inspire. Thank you so much both of you for being on the show.

Ann Ishimura: 00:25:17

Thanks so much.

Decoteau Irby: 00:25:18

Thank you.