Creating a Healthy Management Culture
In this interview with Keith Haney, Brian Walch discusses managing organizations and personal development. Brian discusses taking risks and making decisions, the influence of role models, and his transition from IT consulting to coaching and consulting. They also discuss managers' challenges, the need for clear expectations and support from organizations, and the difference between managers and leaders. As Brian emphasizes, managers need to be invested in, a management culture must be established, and career ownership must occur.
Transcript
Well, Brian, it's good to have you on the podcast today. How are you doing?
Brian Walch (:Excellent, Keith. It's great to be here. I'm happy to join you.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So good to have you on and we'll talk about one of my favorite topics is personal development and how we make people better. Cause no matter what organization you're in, you can always help make people better. Those who lead and those who they, and the people that they, that they guide. So I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Brian Walch (:Excellent. Yeah, me too. It's one of my favorite topics as well. So it should be fun.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So I'm gonna tap into your expertise to help us do that better.
Brian Walch (:Sounds good.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:I'd like to start out with this question for my guests. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Brian Walch (:There's a few, but from a professional perspective, I had a coworker one time as I was overthinking a decision, he told me, he's like, just give it a try. What can hurt? And honestly, when I did that, instead of overthinking it, it changed how people saw me and changed the trajectory of my career. And so I kept that. I kept that like...
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Thank you.
Brian Walch (:Sometimes when you have this decision, it's like, just try something. You can always change direction. So that was probably one of the biggest pieces of professional advice, of really simple but powerful thing.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So for someone who overthinks things, how do you shift to not do that? What's your replacement? Because you can't just do something different. So how do you replace that or change that mindset?
Brian Walch (:Yeah, one of the ways that works really well for me is to, especially when it's a big decision, is to analyze how can I make that decision smaller? So if I can, instead of moving, I don't know what a good example would be moving across country, can I talk to people in that different part of the country and get a better idea? What are the small steps I can take?
instead of making that big decision. Sometimes you just got to make a decision. You just got to do something. And the other thing I'll do is just capture the decision moment. Because what happens is like after you make a decision and things don't turn out right, you look back like, that was a dumb decision. Or, you know, I wish I hadn't made it. And it's.
having that decision moment captured, you look back and go, no, I made the best decision I could at that time. Now these are the consequences. I'm going to make the best of it. So those are a couple of things I do to kind of like change my mindset instead of like getting stuck in the analysis paralysis.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:I love that sometimes I'll give myself a deadline that I can overthink it for a certain point, but I gotta make a decision by blank date.
Brian Walch (:Yeah, yeah, totally. Like, what else am I going to know? What more am I going to know that's going to change anything?
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Exactly, I love that. I'm always curious about people like yourself who have achieved a certain level of success in life. Who are some people, if you think back, who served as role models or inspirations for you? Tell us something about them and kind of give them a shout out.
Brian Walch (:Yeah, the shadow will be kind of hard because honestly, like my biggest inspiration, partly it's because of this journey I'm on in terms of my own business, but my biggest inspiration was my dad. He had a very successful career in engineering and around my age, he also loved flying and he started an aerial photography business and went that route.
And that ended in, didn't end well. It ended in a little bit of tragedy. He built a plane that didn't quite materialize into all the commercial results that he expected. And I still admired him tremendously because he had this courage to try to live out his dreams, do something he enjoyed. And then he went back to engineering and did engineering until late in his life because he loved it. He loved that work. And,
So I've always looked at him as, you know, finding purpose and meaning and a sense of personal destiny in my decisions for what I do. And the reason I say it's hard is he just passed away like eight months ago. So I still hold him, you know, and I told him that all the time, like, Dad, no matter what the results of your decisions were, the fact that you made those decisions, I respect and admire tremendously. And...
And I've got kind of a family legacy of people making these kind of big courageous decisions. His dad did the same thing and so it's cool.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Wow. What a neat legacy. Sorry for your loss.
Brian Walch (:Yeah, thank you.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So tell us about your journey. I read your bio, but again, the bio only kind of gives us a snapshot, but you kind of give us the fill in the back part of your journey for us.
Brian Walch (:Certainly, I'm based here in Anchorage, Alaska. This is where I was born and raised. I actually pretty much live where I was raised. So I don't fall far from home. But I've been married for almost 30 years. It'll be 30 years this August. I got four kids. And so I spent 25 years at an IT consulting firm and started out doing software development and programming.
carried technical work through most of that time. But as a growing consulting firm, we also did, I also got the opportunity to do a lot of very different roles. I ran the recruiting and HR functions for a long time, helped out in business leadership, business development, helping manage offices. So had this, all these wonderful experiences. And I got to a point where I was just kind of thinking, what do I want to do for the...
for the rest of my life. And realized that really the impact I wanted to make was more with people, not projects and systems. And that's, so coaching was kind of a natural business model, but that's also why I decided to venture out on my own. So now I do shift focus coaching and consulting and yeah, like we'll talk about focus on managers a little bit.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Yeah, so let's talk about that. So why focus on managers? I mean, I know they're a critical part of the organization, but tell us what drove you to focus on managers.
Brian Walch (:Well, the number one reason was because I lived what I feel like managers go through. Like I have a lot of empathy for what the management experience is like. You get promoted and there's a lot of ambiguity. There's a lot of expectations. There's not a lot of support. There's not a lot of clarity. And, you know, I just lived that pain. And so partly I thought, well, I have some ideas of how I can help them. And then...
The other reason why I focus on managers is because I really want people to enjoy work. Like I think work is, can be rewarding and fulfilling. And like I shared the story about my dad working late into life, cause he loved work. I think there's something noble about that, that I want to help propagate. And managers have the biggest influence on how we feel about work. So if we can,
You know, if I can help managers be great at their job and love their job, they're going to do a better job. They're going to impact their employees. Their employees are going to go home happier. Their employees are going to be better parents and spouses and friends, members of their communities and have more energy to give others. And so I really believe in my like idealized future fantasy state that managers can change the world. If.
They help people enjoy their work. And that's where I believe the biggest impact we can make in our workplaces. And that's why I focus on them.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:As you were talking, it kind of made me think about something. It seems like marriages kind of tend to fall into some trap. So what would you say is the management trap?
Brian Walch (:Yeah, that's good. There's a lot of them. One of them is...
I don't know what the word for the trap would be, but just the thinking I have to move up. Managers get it, they go into management for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it's out of like, I wanna have a bigger impact, but sometimes it's, I wanna raise or I think I need to move up. And they get into management and they keep that mentality.
And then they just start getting frustrated because it, like I said, it gets more ambiguous in terms of how you progress and how you move forward and what the next steps are. And so I think that's a trap is like, I want to move up and it's almost harder for them the more they've tried to work at that, right? Instead of like, how do I get really good at my role? So anyway, that's one of the traps.
I think another trap is thinking that other people have the answers. That there's something that nobody's telling me and that's why I'm not being successful as opposed to looking inward.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:If you are coaching a manager, what are some things you would encourage them to do to be better at what their responsibilities are? Because I think a lot of times, like you say, you get in that position, you're not quite sure what the next step is. What do I need to learn? What are some skills I need to master to be really good at this? What are some common, I mean, everybody's got different responsibilities, but what are some things you're kind of finding that's kind of common to most managers that they need to...
really develop if they're new to this position.
Brian Walch (:There's, I put it in four categories and I actually have an acronym for this I call risers. And, but to think about these four categories somewhat distinctly because you're going to have strengths and weaknesses of a particular, you know, manager that is going to make some of these easier or harder. And your environment is going to dictate which one of these, some of these are more important or less important. So the four categories are.
relationships or influence. So who are the relationships you need to cultivate? What kind of influence do you need to have to be successful? And then skills and experience. So that might be communication skills, delegation skills, project management skills, negotiation skills. You could start listing it off. And a lot of times when you start thinking about it that way, those are opening up for some good discussions with your boss or with your peers about,
What are they doing to be successful? Or what does your boss think you need to do to be successful? So that's skills or experience. It might be a specific event in your company. So for example, with our software developers, as they would move up, they couldn't move beyond a certain level if they didn't have the experience of taking a system into production, what we call a go live event. That was an experience.
You couldn't mark it off as a skill. And so for some positions, you might have to have an experience of like running a payroll or terminating an employee or things like that. And then the third category would be results. So what results are you responsible for? And those are usually pretty good discussions because what I find is a lot of managers don't really know what success criteria is for them. And then the last one is systems.
But what are the systems that you need to know, whether it's your internal systems, technical systems, or kind of the people process systems. And so I actually, when I work with managers is kind of flip the script a little and say, okay, here are the risers. Here are these categories. What do you think? Why don't you create a map of what your role would look like and how you can progress in your role for your environment, for your strengths and weaknesses.
Brian Walch (:and have them put that together.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Do you find that many organizations or most organizations make it clear what's expected of managers or they have to go discover this? Because I'm kind of, as you described it, I'm going, that's good to know if you've been there like you have before and you know this. But if you're walking into it, where do you go to even find out that these are the things I need to be checking off my list to do? Because I'm kind of thinking that no one's giving you a roadmap or a three ring binder that says, here's the things you have to do.
So how do you go about discovering that if you are a manager?
Brian Walch (:Yep, no, you're exactly right. That's why I developed the framework so that they have a way to discover it and a way to kind of organize it. But in most organizations, I would agree with you 100%. It is not clear. And in fact, the people, the bosses will say like, of course it's clear. But then when you start talking about it, everybody's talking at right angles. So.
There's a couple of things a manager can do. Like I said, having this framework does provide then the opportunity for more in -depth conversations with your boss. So that's one place you can go. You can say, what relationships do I need to have to be successful in this role? Or I want to keep progressing. So conversations with your boss, those are really great.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Then I would also look at the organization and say, who is doing well? Who's been here for a while? Who's the only one who's been here?
Brian Walch (:Then I would also look across the organization to say who is really doing well, who has been here for a while, who do I have a relationship with that I could talk to more and get some peer support. If somebody's courageous, I think it'd be great to be able to ask a few of your employees, what skills do you need me to do to support you better or to lead this department better?
And sometimes those very vulnerable conversations can lead to a lot of really good interactions and kind of a change in the relationship. And then lastly, it's looking outside your organization, like either other people that you respect, that you follow on LinkedIn or something like that, or just reading books and kind of shaping that up a little yourself. And ideally, you're right. Like the manager is kind of the trailblazer. The first one that does this is going to have to...
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:And then lastly, it's looking outside your organization, like either other people that you expect to follow on your agenda or something like that, or if you even get kind of shaken out of your organization. And ideally, you're right, the manager is kind of the trailblazer, the person on the message is going to have to kind of create this and establish this to make their own lives.
Brian Walch (:kind of create this and discover this as they move along. But if they do it well, then it becomes something that the next manager can use and improve upon, but they're not starting from ground zero.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:But if you're still here, yeah, then it becomes something that's a next level for you. Right, I love that. As a manager, what are some books you'd recommend that managers read? Because it's, like I said, it's new to most people. And if you're trying to unpack what your role is, what are some things, resources they could look to grow from and develop from?
Brian Walch (:Yeah. Number one would be, wrestler ways when they win you in, he has a great book about management and then, I'm trying to play kind of name, but she wrote the making of a manager. those two would be like must reads for, for a new manager.
Yeah, those would be the two off the top of my head that I would say, like, read them and reread them. Like, you know. Yeah.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:As I was growing up, there was a very distinct difference between managers and leaders. Do you see them as kind of on the same par in today's business world or are those still two separate things?
Brian Walch (:Yeah, that's, I think that's an ongoing debate with people, right? How I see it is I really distinguish the term manager as a title, as something you're given to do. And it is kind of up to you to become the leader. And when I work with people, the first thing is understanding you have to be a leader of yourself.
And so I think sometimes a lot of managers, and I know I certainly felt this way, they resist being called or holding onto the mantle of leadership for a whole variety of reasons. They don't want the responsibility. They've seen bad leaders in their history, and they're like, I don't want to be that type of person. And so I don't think it's, you can just say somebody's a leader. They have to kind of...
move into it and fill the space. But my hope is that all of us, I don't think you have to be a manager, I hope all of us become leaders. We're leaders of ourselves, we're leaders of the people we can influence, leaders in our communities, leaders in our families. So I don't make a distinction and I try to, to be honest, I try to avoid managers getting sucked into that. Am I a leader?
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Thank you.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Thank you.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Great.
Brian Walch (:You be a leader of yourself and kind of keep moving. And at some point you will realize, wow, I have more responsibility to be a leader than I realize now I'm going to own that responsibility.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:That's good, because I know we had that. That's always an ongoing debate in the world of manager versus leader.
Brian Walch (:Yeah, yeah, and I think, I mean, you know, I think the people that don't want to call their managers leaders are, you know, just seeing them as filling a role. And I think those are the organizations that are that need to evolve because managers, that's what I want to like, keep, keep evangelizing and bring up is managers have so much potential, so much capacity across all of our organizations to to really influence things in a positive way.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So let's focus on the organization now. We talked about the kind of the thing we're trying to solve, but how do organizations, how can they better support their managers?
Brian Walch (:Yeah, my favorite thing, because it's like, if I could get up on my soapbox, the number one thing would be just invest in your managers. We look so often to try to figure out how can we do just the minimum to get them the basic skills. And that isn't working really well, because it just puts more tasks and more pressure on them, as opposed to really supporting them.
what my observations and, or we try to do these very generic solutions where we say, we're gonna dilute this money out across all the managers or all the employees. And we have a very diluted impact in terms of their proficiency and their ability. So what I, my soapbox is really...
invest in your managers and people -based initiatives. When they get training or they get tools, they really need the support to apply those skills and apply those tools in ways that make sense for them. And that takes a lot of conversation. I mean, that's a lot of what I do in coaching is, all right, you want to be a better communicator. How are you going to communicate in this meeting? How are you going to work with your customers? We talked about that.
talk through that. I mean, it's a very practical application of skills. And so that takes time, whether it's an investment of time or investment of money. And it takes investment from senior staff, it takes investment from external coaches, it takes investment of training and other tools that can help them make it practical. So that's the number one thing. And what I say is invest them, empower them, promote them. And so, and...
So that's how I think one of the ways, biggest ways organizations can support managers. There's a bunch of other things, but.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Why is it in your opinion do you think managers are undervalued in organizations?
Brian Walch (:Well, that's a good question.
Brian Walch (:I think that that's complex, I think. I'll give you one perspective. If you think about the manager that is doing really well as an individual contributor, they get moved into management and they're taking care of a small group and that's running well and they get it running well. Everybody's kind of happy with that. The manager...
is like not sure exactly what they should be doing. So they kind of hold on to a pretty big chunk of the work. They kind of manage their team. They do that well enough that nobody externally is complaining about it. And they don't really want to disrupt things because the manager's not saying anything. So they assume they're happy. Their problems are kind of happy. And so they don't really look at them as a solution to other problems because a, pulling them out would
create some problems and B, everybody's the status quo seems happy. So that is one of the, so that kind of like homeostasis creates a little bit of like, well, they're not really the source of future growth or future leadership. And I'd argue back to what I just said, partly that's because we're not investing in them or seeing them that way. But,
I think it does lead to a little bit of like they're undervalued. The other side of it is we have managers that move into management and aren't good, either because they don't get the support or they just went in there and realized it wasn't good. And we're not great about coaching them out of management or helping them find a different opportunity. And so they kind of stay in there.
like as good enough, but they're not really happy because they're not thriving. The organization isn't really happy, but nobody does anything about it. And that leads to a, you know, a misconception that management across the board is just stuck at this one layer.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So it seems to me if you have a manager who doesn't create any problems, everybody seems relatively happy. You could get stuck there because why mess with something that's working? So if you're a manager who's doing okay work and everybody's okay with you, how do you get promoted? Because I'm sure the company's like, well, we don't want to take this guy. I mean, no one's really complaining. So why move him up the ladder? And so how do you get promoted when you're one of those guys or ladies who...
does a good enough job where the company is satisfied with your work, but they don't see it as a value of enough to move you up to some higher position.
Brian Walch (:Yep. Yep. There's, when I think about the management journey or the journey within your role, you know, not like the steps on a career ladder, but just within your role, there's three stages, I call them three P's of progression. And so the first one is the practice stage. You know, that's when you just get started and you're kind of figuring things out. And eventually you master what's needed there and you move into the perform stage.
And that's where you're doing your job well. And that's where people kind of stay. Like that's that homeostasis where everybody's happy. But there's a third stage called the pioneer stage. And that's where people need to start exploring if they want to be promoted. And it needs to be, in my opinion, needs to be an open conversation because, because like you just said, what happens is,
a manager that has some ambition, if they're sitting in that homeostasis stage, they eventually, they're like, they're fine for a while and then eventually they kind of get bored. And because nobody's talking to them and they don't know what the opportunities are, what they do is they go look at other jobs. And then pretty soon they go like, that looks interesting. And they go get another job and everybody's like, you know, what happened?
Well, and then the organization just lost a really good manager and any opportunity for them to continue their career at that company. So having that discussion of what can I do to like make my mark, make something special. And the boss should be talking to the manager about where they want to go and what they might want to do so that that pioneer stage is something that's helping among their career journey. The manager has
responsibility to do though, because they have to create enough space to actually do something different. And that takes a little bit of courage because they have to delegate some work and create some time and let go of some of the things that make them valuable and feel really good in order to have some space to do something different. But that to me is where the opportunities for meaningful promotions can happen.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So let's take that a little deeper. If you're an organization and you're listening to us right now, how do you create a healthy management culture?
Brian Walch (:Yeah, the, the, I don't know if you've heard the expression, I'm sure you have, but you know, I hear it all the time is we have as many cultures as we have managers. And, right. And so, you know, the, the manager is really, the managers really do shape the culture. And so when I talk about management culture, I think about the behaviors, the actions, the beliefs, the values of your managers.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Right.
Brian Walch (:And so shaping that culture is giving them or having that management culture is giving them some ownership and responsibility to do that across all managers. And they are the ones that steward it. And then I guess the other thing is I think of culture as you can't just dictate it, but it's also not 100 % organic. Like there's a little bit of...
Let's reflect and talk about what are our common practices, beliefs, values, and then what do we want that to be like and how can we shape that and cultivate it. And if your managers are the ones doing that, then that will permeate through other areas, but it's got to start with the manager. So it's like a middle out development of your culture or cultivation of your culture.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:I like that. So I'm curious as you do this coaching with managers, what are you most excited about as you coach managers?
Brian Walch (:I guess a few things. One is I think that today we have so many tools and so many things that are available to us, information resources. And so, my main message is take responsibility, take ownership. And because we have such a wealth of knowledge, people can do that in very personal ways and meaningful ways.
And so I think that's really exciting. Like I don't feel like I'm in danger of making a codependent relationship with people I coach, right? Because I'm trying to empower them, but there are a lot of resources out there if they can kind of take that ownership and use them for the ways that they want to use them. So that's really exciting. And then, you know, I'm just, I'm continually, I mean, I think this is...
ancient or as old as ever, but I'm continually amazed by just the power of like one -on -one relationships and connection. I mean, even doing, you know, podcast interviews like this, where I get to talk to people for, you know, half hour, an hour. When you get to do that with people in a coaching environment where you're doing it over three or six or 12 months, you just form these really deep connections and then you help them see how they can form connections.
And I think that's where the power is, where the value is, and where the reward is. Even in this age of AI and all those things, it's still going to come back to people and relationships.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:I think that's really good.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:I love that. I love to ask my guests this question. As you think about the impact you're having, what do you want your legacy to be?
Brian Walch (:I really want people to enjoy work. Like if people said, I worked with Brian and I was happier at work, I enjoyed work, that would be, you know, good, good epitaph. And ideally, I mean, like if I had my grand vision, it would be that work is the cure for...
for what ails us. And that's like, we're so far opposite of that, right? Like now work is a four letter word. But if we could find meaning and value and significance in our work and that helped improve our emotional and our physical and our relational lives, that would be awesome. And if I could contribute to that or somebody said I helped contribute to that, that would be awesome. Make me proud.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Right.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So I'm gonna give you the platform to speak for 30 seconds to managers. What do you wanna say?
Brian Walch (:I would tell them that A, everybody is experiencing the kind of angst and ambiguity that comes in your role, that it happens to all of us across all sectors and it's not unique. And whenever you find yourself asking, I don't know what they want, I wish somebody would tell me what the options are. I don't know where to go, that you take that phrase as a cue to say, what do I want?
What can I do? How can I move this forward? That's that idea of taking responsibility is managers have more power and freedom than they know. And if they step into it, I think they'll be happier. I think you will be happier and more fulfilled in your career and in your life.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:That's great. And you did it in under 30 seconds. That's really good. Just really good. So Brian, as we wrap up our conversation, what are some key takeaways and insights you want our audience and listeners to remember from our discussion today?
Brian Walch (:All right. Excellent.
Brian Walch (:Well, I think like I just said in that statement, one would be to take ownership, take responsibility for your career. That's really where I think the opportunity for more fulfillment, more satisfaction is. And it is entirely in your control. So that's independent of layoffs and pressures and all these things. We can always own ourselves and our career direction. And.
The second thing is we've talked a little bit about some of these different frameworks and paradigms, and I hope that that might be helpful for people to kind of structure their thinking a little bit to be able to take action once they decide to take responsibility to take action on things that are meaningful to them. So this will be a couple insights that might be helpful to your audience.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:So for the manager who says, I need Brian as my coach, how can they get a hold of you and connect with you, Brian?
Brian Walch (:Yeah, thank you. My website is shiftfocus .com. And if you go there, you can book a free management strategy call. I'd love to have a short call with you to talk a little bit about your needs and how I might be able to support you and your organization. And then down at the bottom, there's a subscription form where you can sign up for my weekly email. I call it Simple Sundays. And I just provide tips to become a great manager.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:You have so many good resources. Where's your book coming out with all these little gems in them, Brian?
Brian Walch (:Not sure, maybe someday, but.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Well, Brian, thank you so much for what you do for managers and hopefully, like you said, helping people to learn to enjoy work because it is the biggest part of our life. And hopefully it's one of the most enjoyable parts of our life that we find a way to tap into our individual unique skills, gifts and abilities and to really make an impact in the companies that we get the chance to serve as we, those companies serve the greater good of the world. So thank you for what you do.
Brian Walch (:Well, thank you, Keith. It's a pleasure. I appreciate the platform, be able to share some of this stuff, and thank you for being a great host.
of Becoming Bridge Builders (:Thank you, Brian.
