Unpacking Life Choices: A Deep Dive into Compassionate Care

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:00:59

Welcome to Becoming Bridge Builders, the podcast where we explore the stories of hope, justice and transformation.

I am your host, Keith Haney, and today we have an extraordinary guest whose work is redefining what Compassion Care looks like in one of the most challenging spaces of our time.

rvices. Since its founding in: 2021

Ground in Erica's conviction that this work is sacred, we want to welcome her to the podcast. How you doing today?

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:01:43

I am doing fantastic, Keith. Thank you for having me.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:01:47

I'm glad to have you on. I'm going to ask you my favorite question as we get started. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:01:54

Well, the best piece of advice I have ever received came from my grandmother who raised me. And she said, she told me when I was 10, don't try to fit in because you were born to stand out.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:02:11

Interesting.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:02:13

It was very interesting. I had no idea what she was talking about, but taken me the next few 40 some odd years to begin to figure it out.

She was wise beyond anything I could ever imagine.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:02:24

Yeah, no joke. So let's get into what you do.

Cause I think I know we probably have maybe different perspectives on it, but we all have a different view of how we do this and how we care for people in this space. So tell me how you got started in this and the work that you're doing.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:02:41

Well, I'll actually share just like three really important arcs to my story. And the first, first arc is about the abortion that I had when I was 14 years old.

And that abortion helped me to understand that I had to take care of my own physical and sexual well being. Fast forward three years, I had another abortion. And that abortion reoriented me towards what I was going to do with my life.

Of course, I didn't know it at the time, but at the clinic where I was receiving my abortion at 18, the women that took care of me that, you know, I can't even tell you who the doctor was. But all of the women that took care of me throughout my whole process were so amazing, I can't tell you their names, I couldn't tell you their faces.

But after that process, I realized that they were doing something, something that changed my life. They helped me and I began to think about, I don't know who these women are, but I want to do the same thing they're doing. And then.

And that was really the beginning. Right. That was the beginning of my work.

Fast forward a couple of years forward, and I was eight months pregnant, and I was volunteering at one of the clinics escorting women into get their reproductive care.

And this is in California in the 90s, where they didn't have distance law, so they needed people to come to the cars where women were and help them get safely into the clinic. I was very, very pregnant, clearly. And as I was escorting someone in, and I had even a vest that said escort, someone from the opposition spit on me.

And in a real intense layer of rage welled up in me for so many reasons, but I made the commitment right then and there that I was gonna do something in this work for the rest of my life. And that is what gave me the energy to continue volunteering and to get into this work after I had gone through a different.

A series of different career moves. And so those are the real stories of what happened for me and how I ended up doing what I'm doing now.

Of course, you know, at 55, it looks very different than when you're 25. So.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:05:13

Yeah. So I come at it from a different point of view because I'm also. I serve on a couple of pro life boards. And.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:05:22

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:05:23

And so I know Christians are really in this space struggling with how do we care for people. And also remember that there's another life involved in this as well.

And I'm curious, as someone who is a believer, how do you walk that line of life and care? Because I know it's a complicated issue for so many people.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:05:52

And I agree with you. One of the things.

And I'm a licensed interfaith minister, so my master's in world religions, so I have a little bit of knowledge about a whole lot of stuff.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:06:02

Right.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:06:03

But what I do know is that I no longer. And really, once I was ordained, I no longer have to wrestle with people about their beliefs.

That I may not agree with your beliefs, but I will defend to the death your right to believe them.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:06:22

Right.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:06:22

And so, because that is my starting point. Right. With anyone that I call in opposition, which for me simply just means opposing views, which for me is not a bad thing.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:06:36

Right.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:06:36

Which is why I'm on your show.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:06:37

Right.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:06:37

The reality is that we must hold the tension with those opposing views.

You know, the idea of having very pro life people that are dedicated because of their religious conviction and because of their spiritual conscience feel very strongly about caring for the life of the unborn.

And so I have a deep level of respect and admiration for people with opposing views because I have compassion and understanding for their right to believe it.

And that has to be the starting point from any discussion you're going to have, because it's built on a level of respect and reverence, which for me is spiritually based. And so that's my starting point.

And I have found over the 25, 30 years that when you begin from a place of respect and reverence, you can have any kind of discussion with anybody. And that, for me, has been proven throughout my life, even as it may have been personal.

And so that informs my willingness to engage with people that have different ideas, values, visions, and spiritual commitment than I do. And so I think that ideas are not contagious. You can catch them, but. But they're not deadly. They're not a contagion.

And so listening to other people about why they have their views and why they feel the way they do costs me nothing. And as a matter of truth, it actually allows me to expand in my understanding.

And so I think that that's how I approach opposition, whether it be with my five children or whether it be in my career. Right, exactly. And we all know about opposition when we work with our loved ones, including those closest to us.

And so that is the space that I try to create.

A space that's deep enough, wide enough, and has the capacity for spiritual and psychological flexibility with reverence that allows us to engage so that when we have a conversation, it is from a deep place of listening, a heart of compassion, and not from an adversarial place. It's from a compassionate place. Right, exactly. And so no matter what the subject is, if you start there, you're already far ahead of the game.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:09:21

Exactly right.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:09:22

And so there's a way in which I have that, and I also am intensely interested in other people's experience and point of view.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:09:34

I want to get into something a little that we sometimes don't think about in the midst of this discussion, and. And that is the people that are making the decisions. You've worked with a lot of women.

I'm curious, how do you help them processing the decisions they have to make and maybe even kind of walk us through some of the mindsets that they're having to face. Because I think we sometimes only think about one side versus the other, but we don't think about the person that is in that situation in that space.

And if we want to, as a pro life person, I know I can't just say you should keep the baby, but not also tell you how I'm going to help you.

And I think that sometimes where sometimes pro life people forget that they have to deal with the person that's in that situation and the fears and the concerns that they have. And how do we help address the things that you're trying to also address with someone who's wrestling with a very tough decision.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:10:32

Right. And these decisions are often very tough. And they're very tough for a multitude of reasons.

And whether that's age, whether that's financial worries, whether that is emotional or mental overwhelm or complexities, or whether they're coming from a situation where it would be detrimental for them and that unborn child to ex exist in that world anymore. Those are things that people wrestle with.

And, and so my work, whether you're 16 or 36, is to create a space where a woman and those she loves, and that's a critical piece, those she loves, have an opportunity to explore what is the best, best decision for them after they've listened to the guidance of those they love. Whether that's clergy, whether that's their inner self, whether that's their grandmother, whether that's their husband. That's the direction, right?

That the direction is look within first, really look within and search your heart and clear your mind of worry and fear. And then what do you hear?

And then from that place you ask, what about the people that I trust, that hold me up, that I value, that are part of my well being? What part can I take from them and how much weight do, do I give them?

And then from that place you start to move towards making the best decision for you. What does my religious community think? What, what can I realistically do do if I have a child or not do if I have a child? We don't avoid anything.

We look at all of it. What would be the harm done to me and quite frankly to an unborn child?

And I asked that question not because I want them to feel guilty or ashamed, but because I want them to look at everything on the table.

And when they've looked at all of that, then they can make the best informed decision according to all of the people that love them, according to their spiritual or religious beliefs, and according to what is realistic for themselves and the vision for their life.

And I find when you point people to that, rather than say I have your answer or this group thinks you should do that, people naturally gravitate towards the right decision to based on all of the things that they are dealing with not just what is. It's your body, it's your right. Because we all live in connection and in community with each other.

And every choice, whether we like it or not, affects many, many people, including an unborn child.

And so I try to work with people on thinking soberly, which means to look at everything, weigh what is most important, and weigh what that inner voice, whether it's your religion or whether it's yourself is asking of you to do.

And I find with that, most of the people that I've ever worked with, not, not excluding people in trauma based situations, most of them come to the correct and right decision for them. And I am just merely a guide and a support system to remind them to look at everything and to weigh everything.

And so that's what I would invite people who are pro life to do. Rather than coming in saying our religion says you must, and if that's how they want to approach it, that's fine.

What that will do is create a disconnection. And we don't. No one wants that.

No matter what religion you are, no matter what your choices and decisions are, you don't want to disconnect from yourself or from those you love or from whatever that is that guides you and holds you.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:14:47

So we talked a little bit about your process, but tell us a little bit about exactly what your team does and the challenges that the women are facing when they come to you.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:15:00

Well, it's a little bit. I'll give you two answers. There are the challenges that women face that are result of the culture and society we live in.

And I'm including everyone, whether you're a pro life movement or pro choice movement, there's all of that. And then there are the challenges and complexities that they have to face just within their own mind and their histories.

And so it is a very, it's a very, it can be a very confusing time for them.

And so I think that the best thing we can do as people that love them, as people of lovers of Christ or whatever religious background you bring, is to be able to hold them securely and safely while they wrestle with these sometimes painful choices and decisions.

And so what we do is once a woman has made her decision, we then support her fully from the time she has made her decision, helping her secure travel, helping her secure childcare, helping her secure whatever she needs so that she can then experience the day of travel to get the procedure that she's chosen to have and by having someone accompany her. And typically we do it in small groups of 6 to 10. Having a real person allows for many things.

It allows for safety, it allows for physical care, it allows for spiritual support, and it allows for.

For those that have made the decision, if they are wrestling with it right up until the very last moment, it allows for them to have a place to go where they can change their mind and that someone will support them and hold them to getting through their procedure and getting back home safely, or changing their mind and returning back home safely, whatever that is. Our job in the project is to provide spiritual, emotional care, accompaniment, and rest and rejuvenation so that they can return back to their lives.

And we do all of that in one day. And so it's remarkable being able to provide that kind of wraparound care and commitment.

But what is more remarkable is the transformative power of women traveling together through a shared experience. Before you know it, from the time they meet each other at the airport, when we start our day, they instantly form a bond.

By the time they return home, they're sharing pictures of their loved ones at home. They're sharing each other's phone numbers. They are doing the kind of connective work and relationship bonding that transforms their life.

And I mean that. I have a story where two young women met on the trip. They instantly bonded and had found they had so many things in common.

And after they finished their procedure, they returned home. I later, you know, I stay in contact with many of the women, and they shared with me.

One was actually in an abusive relationship and had two children, and one was actually about to be homeless. I understand that story. Because of their meeting together, they ended up getting an apartment together. And last June.

Not yet last June, I received an email saying they both had finished college because they had become roommates. They shared childcare, they shared everything. And they shared their passion for making a better life for themselves and their children. And.

And they met on that trip. And so if that isn't the heart and the spiritual nature of the Christ, I don't really know what is.

And I was merely a shepherd, a Sherpa, a support and guide. And then I get out of the way and allow that which is greater to do its work.

And so when we talk about what does a day look like, that's what a day looks like in logistics and care. But what you never get to hear about in our society is the miracles. And I really mean that intentionally.

That take place as a result of the transformative care that happens when women come together to share and support each other in service.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:19:49

Sounds like you don't push a particular decision on a person, you let you support them, let them make the decision themselves.

So if somebody like you said, got to the place they were going to and decided to change their mind, tell me stories of how you support them if they decided they wanted to keep the child. Cause I know people are going, okay, that's one side of it.

Well, what if somebody decides, this isn't for me, I don't want to do this, I want to keep this child. How would you come alongside that particular person?

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:20:22

I've had a couple of experiences like that, and for me it's very clear the same guidelines apply. Our job is to create the container for safety and care.

And if in that container you discover something or you have a new revelation or you shift your thinking and want to make a decision that's different than the one you initially made, when you are holding, holding the space for a woman's full autonomy and agency, that means including, not except, but including if she decides she would like to keep and continue the pregnancy. That's how support starts right then and there.

And then we help her get home so that she can move about her life knowing that she's making the best decision for her. And so there is no quandary.

There is no, for me, there is no contention in that it actually is in line with the principles and values of the Tubman Travel Project. And so I never have an issue.

I actually fully support a woman's right to come into an awareness of what is right and best for her all the way through.

Our project does not provide any services once they've made their decision to continue a pregnancy other than getting them home, because our job is travel and accompaniment, then there's plenty of ways they can access and plug into more care should they decide to continue with their pregnancy. And so that's where our care typically ends.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:22:05

Interesting. Tell me a little bit about any pushback you've gotten from the work that you do.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:22:15

You mean other than death threats? I consider that probably a bit of a pushback.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:22:21

More than likely, yes.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:22:24

You know, since I was raised by my grandmother, one of the, I would say probably old school values she instilled in me is that of being of service and that of understanding that if you are being guided to do something or to carry out whatever your calling is, there will be challenges. That's it's built in and challenges are not. It's not information that you shouldn't be doing it.

Challenges give you an opportunity to figure out how you can continue it. And it helps Shift, sharpen your focus.

And so really, quite frankly, for me, I often get pushback, whether it's from the movement, the reproductive movement within itself, whether it is in pro life opposition, whether it is in administration or in our culture, pushback and challenge are part of what life is. And so I, I do get that and I act accordingly. If it's an issue of safety and my well being, I'm going to take the precautions.

If it's an issue of different philosophy, different paradigm, I engage it willingly.

And if it is in a pushback or opposition in the religious or moral context, then I do a deep dive into understanding where that's coming from so I can stand appropriately in my place with the truth that I have the God and divine spiritual ideas of what my calling is that I'm to do. And once I do that, I find that I can navigate pushback.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:24:15

That's good. So we're all about building bridges on this podcast and about sharing opportunity for divergent conversations and having an open, honest, fair.

And I say fair and balanced conversation because this is so polarizing. How do you. We talked a little bit about it, but how do you in this space.

Cause you have an approach that's different than what I usually hear from people who do this work. Cause it's often a very toxic conversation on both sides.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:24:51

Absolutely.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:24:51

And there's so much anger and animosity, you don't seem to approach it with that spirit. And so I'm just kind of curious, how do you maintain your groundedness when you deal in such a polarizing area, but also in such a painful area?

Because, I mean, this is still loss, no matter what side of the coin you fall on. There is a loss of life here. There is after effects for the women who've gone through this. I hear women sometimes, every anniversary of that date is.

Is problematic sometimes. So how do you deal with the pain and the grief that's associated with the work that you do?

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:25:34

Well, I'll talk about a little bit personally and then span, expand outward.

Having had my own abortions and having been a woman who was in another, you know, earlier in my career was a teacher, and having been a woman whose imagination was that she would always have many children, that kind of grief is real.

And so for me personally, for Erika, sitting with that grief, welcoming it and allowing it, and taking full responsibility for the choices that I made is the first place. Right. We're talking about personal accountability.

And what I find is that because I live by, I do my best, let me say, to live by A set of principles and values that I, that I don't deter from. They're not negotiable because I do that the reflection on what is going on for me personally happens first.

And so as a result of the choices I made, there was great sadness about the loss of those children and only and not being able to fulfill what I thought was my dream in the way that I thought.

What happened for me is while I had only one child and was not able to have children anymore after that, and I had my two abortions, I ended up meeting and marrying a man who had four children. And so there, you can call it God, you can call it the universe, you could call it divine providence.

I ended up with those children that I wanted not in the way that I thought, but the way that I needed. And so I understand that it doesn't have to be a polarized experience for anyone.

When we look at the nuances of every situation, for everyone, there's lots of stories that people have of having to make this decision and regretting it.

There's lots of stories of having to make this decision and believing it's the best decision they ever made and pointing to why we don't have to fight or argue with people's lived experience. We only have the obligation, should we choose, to invite them into conversation for connection, for community, for better understanding, right?

No one's choice is a threat to my choice.

It may feel like that and people may react and respond to me that way, but because I'm centered and clear on what I know, I don't have to engage with them in that way.

And I think both our movements would do well to begin to think about the things that are real and true, which is that we don't agree on fundamental aspects of this issue. But what are the things that we do agree on? Where can we begin a connection, a conversation, a discourse and a dialogue?

And can we begin it from what we do agree on so that safety and trust is established?

And then we can explore what we don't agree on, not for the purpose or the conviction of changing someone's mind by proving that we're right or righteous, but from a place of ah, that's something I hadn't thought about. I'm going to give that some time with myself. And maybe it might change me and maybe it might not. But I'm better because I have engaged that way.

I'm a better understand, I have a better understanding, I have a better relationship with someone who doesn't agree with me.

I have now Set the stage for creating spaces and places where people who don't get to see what it looks like to be in opposition, but be in relationship and dialogue towards true change. If we don't provide a model, we ain't going to get one.

And so for me, it's very clear that I'm part of the building, the architecture of the future, and it's not a future I will get to share. My grandmother used to say that if your, your vision for your life isn't bigger than you can do in your lifetime, it's not big enough.

And so I understand that the work I'm doing is for my grandchildren's children and it's for my opposition's grandchildren's children. And that's where I live and that's where I invite people to the table.

If I don't have as much care and concern about you and your children's children, why would I think you could even remotely care about me and mine? The leader always goes first.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:30:37

Yep. Love that. So I'm going to ask you a tough question as you open the door. You kind of led right into this.

You said we have to find the place that we can begin when we have agreement. Where is that starting point?

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:30:54

For me, it's a principle and a spiritual truth which is all life is sacred. I don't think there's a pro life or opposing thought or a person that wouldn't agree with me on that. That's a core truth and that's where we start.

Right? So we're not even starting in an adversarial place. We're starting from the place of we believe all life is sacred.

And then we get to dialogue and challenge each other on what that looks like in real life. The, the, the, the principles of. What does it look like if we both say all of life is, is sacred?

Those things may be difficult to come to an understanding or to come together and find a way to work through those issues. But our humanity depends on us being able to do that. History teaches us every civil rights movement, every justice movement had its opposition.

And somehow, some way, no matter whether it is, you know, ancient, you know, India, or whether it is modern day pro life and pro choice people, everyone has to find a way to sit with the reality that this will be our lifelong struggle to understand how to find a way through the things we disagree with about how society is run, how our religious beliefs conflict with each other, and how our choices and decisions, whether they're ours alone or made in movements or community, affect everyone. Because we are intricately linked together, whether we like it or not.

And so our humanity, our existence, depends on us practicing, learning, messing up, how we disagree. And so that's really where I sit with it.

And being able to have those kinds of conversations requires a deep level of personal commitment, an infinite level of patience, and an impossible standard of the ideal, which is. It is possible. It is possible.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:33:30

Good answer.

Now, I'm going to ask you my other favorite question, because I'm going to leave that on that, because that's a good place for us to stop that part of the conversation. What do you want your legacy to be?

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:33:41

What do I want my legacy to be? I mean, you know, it's the joke. You know, if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

You know, I mean, you know, I thought my legacy was going to be something very different than what I'm standing in right now. This was not my plan.

And to the extent that I yield to whatever that is we call God or the divine that that is dragging me and sometimes begging me and sometimes pulling me and sometimes won't let me sleep, if. If I. If I yield to that pulling, I will be guided around and into what is actually my real legacy, whatever that is.

And it's not mine to decide, but what I can say is that my intention today and every day for the rest of my life is to fight for our personal freedom. To be. To be challenging, to be problems, to be confused, to be sad, to be in fear, to be in adversity.

Our right to be has to be the principal way in which I live my life.

And whether I'm talking with my boys or whether I'm talking with a crowd of 600, being able to help people see that the most important thing that we can do as a species is to recognize each other's humanity and to have compassion and care for each other to the best of our ability, come what may.

Regardless of what our feelings are, regardless of what our thoughts are, regardless of what our neighbors or our friends say, if we can live our life by that principle, your life is sacred. My life is sacred. All of life is sacred.

If I can do even a little bit of that, then I have a sense that possibly I'm close to living and leaving a legacy that is meaningful and purposeful. Everything else is really not my concern.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:35:57

That's great. So in season six, we're doing something a little different. We're having you pick a surprise question.

Pick a number between 1 and 10 for your surprise question.

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:36:07

8.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:36:11

Okay. If you could look at through one person's email without them knowing about it. Whose email would you look through?

Rev. Erika Ferguson: 00:36:20

I don't even look through all of my email. The id, like, even when I open up the different emails that I, I mean, that, you know, 6,000, whatever it is, I. I just am like, I cannot.

So the idea of looking at anybody else's email seems, like, outrageous to me. But if I was to choose anyone's emails, I feel like I probably should say my own, but it was probably some stuff I was supposed to do.

I would say I would. I would like to look at the emails of. The emails of. Now, this is a little bit of a fantasy.

The emails of my great great great grandchildren and the emails of my great great grandmothers. Now, I know that's impossible because that's not how email works, but it's a surprise question, so I'm going to give you a surprise answer.

And so I would love to read what my great great grandchildren write about and what, what my great great grandmothers could have wrote about if they could have. That would be very exciting to me.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney: 00:37:30

That's good. I like that.

Well, Erica, thank you so much for coming on in this space and having this conversation and bringing your heart and your grace to this conversation and openness to have this conversation. I think it benefits the movement, benefits the conversation.

And I have to tell you, I really respect when you said the sanctity of life is where we meet and where we start the conversation.

And I pray that no matter how you feel about this particular topic, we hold on to the sanctity of life, because that is where this conversation needs to begin. How do we support people who honor and value life? Because that's what God gave us.

And, and that's where we really can have the most impact as believers in saying that we have to lift up life and how do we support those who care about life? So again, thank you for that. To my listeners.

If today's conversation moved you, please share this episode and consider supporting my podcast and the Truman Travel Together project. Together we can build bridges of compassion and care. Until next time, keep building bridges and keep lifting up life. Thank you, Erika, so much.